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Lucas
路Lumed hands on dial without any lume dots.
The dial is 1000% legit. However I do not believe these mounted on a steel case, and definitely not with that handset. You should find a gold case to fit it.
SAS Polarouter - Black Dial
The dial is 1000% legit. However I do not believe these mounted on a steel case, and definitely not with that handset. You should find a gold case to fit it.
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ConElPueblo
路I can confirm, this is a legit dial. I have one too on a gold case. Great, great find. I thought I had the only one ever but turns out there's more. Can I ask where you found it?
Thanks
Nice!
Pictures man, pictures! 馃榿
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Mazoue
路I have to say that none of the points I thought gave cause to concern has been addressed properly, IMO.
Dial colour not seen previously on a SAS Polarouter (right?).
Text of a type not seen previously.
Missing "Swiss" and "Polarouter".
Lumed hands on dial without any lume dots.
Print quality low.
The fact is that pretty much every point of visual interest on this watch is an exception to what is considered the norm. Adding to that, I feel that the overall presentation of the dial is just... I don't know how to put this in a different way than "clumsy". That gold ink applied in rather heavy manner on the black dial makes for an unelegant look which I just don't associate with UG, least of all the other SAS Pole/arouters I've seen here.
The only reason I am not expressing myself more confidently is that I am not that into UG, but what I know from assessing vintage watches in general enough inconsistencies are evident for me to, personally, judge this one out.
I share, and indeed voiced, some of the concerns you mention but just because we've not seen one before does not mean it is necessarily wrong.
I promise you that it does not look clumsy in person.
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ConElPueblo
路I share, and indeed voiced, some of the concerns you mention but just because we've not seen one before does not mean it is necessarily wrong.
I promise you that it does not look clumsy in person.
The main point raised was the placement of the text, but it is still an anomaly, as the example with the same placement had a different text (missing the accent grave, for one thing).
Glad to hear that it looks better in person - and I am looking forward to seeing @Lucas' specimen 馃榾
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Mazoue
路The dial is 1000% legit. However I do not believe these mounted on a steel case, and definitely not with that handset. You should find a gold case to fit it.
There are two things that don't make sense to me about this dial potentially not starting life in this case. Firstly, why would someone remove this dial from the original gold watch? Secondly, why would someone remove what would have been a Polarouter dial from what is otherwise a perfectly normal early 20217-4 case with appropriate movement, chapter ring and hands, and replace it with this one?
I do appreciate however that it would answer various questions such as gilt dial with steel case and lume hands with no lume dial.
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Lucas
路There are two things that don't make sense to me about this dial potentially not starting life in this case. Firstly, why would someone remove this dial from the original gold watch? Secondly, why would someone remove what would have been a Polarouter dial from what is otherwise a perfectly normal early 20217-4 case with appropriate movement, chapter ring and hands, and replace it with this one?
I do appreciate however that it would answer various questions such as gilt dial with steel case and lume hands with no lume dial.
Well supposedly these dials were never commercialised as such. Kind of like the white Pan- AM Gmt dials. Or so I have been told by guys working at Universal. As such I wouldn't be surprised if the dial was a spare and yes it is fortunate that someone would have put the dial in a correct polar outer case, but hey I can't vouch for certain.
I am away from home and won't be able to post the watch (I can't find a pic of it). But the dial is the exact same.
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Carlton-Browne
路Firstly, why would someone remove this dial from the original gold watch?
Scrap value? UGs haven't always been so highly valued in the past and the historical significance might easily have been missed.
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Martinibianco
路If the dial is original as Lucas said, then this is a great find Mazoue! Waiting for Lucas to post the pictures of his watch...馃嵖
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Mazoue
路Having had some correspondence with @Lucas , I understand that we may need to wait a while for him to be able to post a picture of his example.
In the meantime, I shall get my watch serviced, cleaned up, the crystal changed and probably the hands relumed (tastefully and by an expert).
On receipt of the watch, I was pleased by the condition of the case. That original photo had led me to believe that the front of the case was badly scratched but actually it's just dirty and I think it will clean up beautifully.
I'll post some more pictures in a month or two once that work has been completed.
In the meantime, I shall get my watch serviced, cleaned up, the crystal changed and probably the hands relumed (tastefully and by an expert).
On receipt of the watch, I was pleased by the condition of the case. That original photo had led me to believe that the front of the case was badly scratched but actually it's just dirty and I think it will clean up beautifully.
I'll post some more pictures in a month or two once that work has been completed.
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Diabolik
路Not trying to put a damper on this discussion but I still need convincing that the dial is correct. The presence of another identical dial may not be enough to ensure it is original.
As mentioned, I see too many issues with it.
As mentioned, I see too many issues with it.
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Mazoue
路Fair comment. At least the theory of the dial being originally in a gold case removes your concern regarding the gilt dial and steel case combination.
I'm not sure there is much more I can do to mitigate your other concerns relating to the font, emblem and missing "Swiss".
Perhaps just agree to revisit once I am able to take some better photos with a new crystal and we hopefully also have the example belonging to @Lucas to compare it to. I will also ask the watchmaker to take photos of the movement, the dial without a crystal, the back of the dial etc.
Meanwhile, it looks fabulous to my admittedly biased eye 馃槈
I'm not sure there is much more I can do to mitigate your other concerns relating to the font, emblem and missing "Swiss".
Perhaps just agree to revisit once I am able to take some better photos with a new crystal and we hopefully also have the example belonging to @Lucas to compare it to. I will also ask the watchmaker to take photos of the movement, the dial without a crystal, the back of the dial etc.
Meanwhile, it looks fabulous to my admittedly biased eye 馃槈
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Mazoue
路I would dearly like to be able to compare the printing on my dial above against:
- printed SAS logos from SAS Polarouters (albeit other known examples, with the exception of the dial owned by @Lucas, are white)
- printed text from Polarouters, SAS or otherwise
- any UG gold printing on black dials from a similar period i.e. early to mid 1950s
If anyone is willing to share macro images with me for this purpose then please contact me directly. Please rest assured that no images will be shared without your permission.
- printed SAS logos from SAS Polarouters (albeit other known examples, with the exception of the dial owned by @Lucas, are white)
- printed text from Polarouters, SAS or otherwise
- any UG gold printing on black dials from a similar period i.e. early to mid 1950s
If anyone is willing to share macro images with me for this purpose then please contact me directly. Please rest assured that no images will be shared without your permission.
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Mazoue
路Whilst I do a little research on the Nilert gold Polerouter, my thoughts have returned to the black dialled steel Polarouter.
I've opened the case and attach photos of the movement and inside of the caseback.
As far as I can see, the only points of interest are:
- that the movement is stamped HOX indicating that it was intended for the US market
- there are a number of service marks inside the caseback including a relatively recent "J.M. 11/13"
As per my post above, I would welcome any macro dial shots of Polarouters to compare the text with mine. I have no intention of sharing any images, they are for personal consumption only.
I've opened the case and attach photos of the movement and inside of the caseback.
As far as I can see, the only points of interest are:
- that the movement is stamped HOX indicating that it was intended for the US market
- there are a number of service marks inside the caseback including a relatively recent "J.M. 11/13"
As per my post above, I would welcome any macro dial shots of Polarouters to compare the text with mine. I have no intention of sharing any images, they are for personal consumption only.
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Mazoue
路The few black dialled Polarouters that I have been able to find online also seem to have HOX stamped Cal 138ss movements.
If you have a black dialled Polarouter (so either a 20217-1 or 20217-4), I would be interested to know whether your Cal 138ss is also stamped HOX.
If you have a black dialled Polarouter (so either a 20217-1 or 20217-4), I would be interested to know whether your Cal 138ss is also stamped HOX.
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ConElPueblo
路If you have a black dialled Polarouter (so either a 20217-1 or 20217-4), I would be interested to know whether your Cal 138ss is also stamped HOX.
I fail to see the significance of this? If the original watches were received upon landing in USA, it would make sense that it was an US piece. I would think that all of them were stamped HOX.
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Mazoue
路I'm trying to establish whether my black dialled Polarouter is a genuine SAS example. The HOX stamp may be of no significance at all but I'm just trying to learn as much as I can.
It actually might be more interesting to know whether the watches that we know/believe to be genuine SAS examples with white dials that were presented in Los Angeles also have HOX stamped movements. If they do not, then it would seem less likely that my black dialled version was connected with that original flight.
It actually might be more interesting to know whether the watches that we know/believe to be genuine SAS examples with white dials that were presented in Los Angeles also have HOX stamped movements. If they do not, then it would seem less likely that my black dialled version was connected with that original flight.
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Modest_Proposal
路It's funny - to some of you, seeing two of these arguably dubious gilt dials in two completely different cases is a good thing. At least one of them is in a gold case?
To me, finding each example in a different case is more evidence against than for. Since forgers are not necessarily picky in how they case their forgeries. I guess we'll have to wait for photos to make a better judgement.
I agree with all of ConElPueblo's concerns about the dial, though I am no UG "expert" and I recognize that SAS watches were made in very small numbers - which might affect consistency and/or common practices.
That being said, isn't the silver chapter ring part of the dial itself? I don't see how it would be compatible with a gold case, if so.
To me, finding each example in a different case is more evidence against than for. Since forgers are not necessarily picky in how they case their forgeries. I guess we'll have to wait for photos to make a better judgement.
I agree with all of ConElPueblo's concerns about the dial, though I am no UG "expert" and I recognize that SAS watches were made in very small numbers - which might affect consistency and/or common practices.
That being said, isn't the silver chapter ring part of the dial itself? I don't see how it would be compatible with a gold case, if so.
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Mazoue
路One of the owners of a white dialled SAS Polarouter has confirmed to me that their watch is not stamped HOX. This seems to reduce the likelihood of my watch being connected with that first flight in the same way although I don't think we can be certain what commemorative watches were produced at the time, for what reason or by whom.
I take your point regarding the same dials in different cases although the dial belonging to @Lucas is in a gold case and he believes that is how mine started life. I believe the chapter ring and dial are separate, so I don't think that's an issue. Hopefully he is able to share photos of his dial in the near future.
If the watch is a redial of some sort, then it is a convincing and attractive one. I have never ignored this as a possibility however. If it is a redial then when is this likely to have been done? I don't think it was done recently as this seller does not seem to have been attempting to maximise his profits (it was sold in a small auction house in a lot with two other watches of little value).
I take your point regarding the same dials in different cases although the dial belonging to @Lucas is in a gold case and he believes that is how mine started life. I believe the chapter ring and dial are separate, so I don't think that's an issue. Hopefully he is able to share photos of his dial in the near future.
If the watch is a redial of some sort, then it is a convincing and attractive one. I have never ignored this as a possibility however. If it is a redial then when is this likely to have been done? I don't think it was done recently as this seller does not seem to have been attempting to maximise his profits (it was sold in a small auction house in a lot with two other watches of little value).
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Mazoue
路The Parisian auction house where I bought the watch was kind enough to contact the seller on my behalf.
The seller was the daughter of the owner, a vintage watch collector who died around two year ago. He apparently bought his collection over many years from different Parisian vintage watch shops. Not sure that helps in terms of providing any provenance but it is of some interest.
It reminds me of the joke I've seen on mugs "My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my watches for what I told her they cost".
The seller was the daughter of the owner, a vintage watch collector who died around two year ago. He apparently bought his collection over many years from different Parisian vintage watch shops. Not sure that helps in terms of providing any provenance but it is of some interest.
It reminds me of the joke I've seen on mugs "My biggest fear is that when I die my wife will sell my watches for what I told her they cost".
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Dre
路So both watches in question appeared in France, Paris to be precise, this last quarter of the year huh? I wonder on what is the connection there.
Hope you can find some more info about these watches, keep us updated!
Hope you can find some more info about these watches, keep us updated!
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