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Risk of reversal of a received bank transfer

john_coburg
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Greetings all
I am selling a watch and aim to exchange the piece in person once i have a bank transfer in my account, which he will only make once he has seen it.

My question: to what extent does he have the ability to claw it back from me, once he's out of my sight?
I never quite understand whether once it's showing in my account, it's mine, or if there is a brief (if so, how brief?) window that it is somehow reversible.

I'd be keen on receiving member's thoughts.

Many thanks indeed.
 
Dan S
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Interesting world we live in. How will you know if the opinions expressed by members are correct or incorrect? I suggest you call your specific bank.
 
bardamu
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As far as I know, once you see money credited on your account, that's final.
But I agree on the suggestion to ask directly your specific bank.
 
YY77
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Up till a few years ago there was no name check with the inputted bank accountno. in the Netherlands. So if you transferred money and made a typo in the accountno. you could only get name and possibly the address of the accountholder via his/her bank and you were on your own to pursuede the receiver to transfer it back.
 
john_coburg
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Dan S Dan S
Interesting world we live in. How will you know if the opinions expressed by members are correct or incorrect? I suggest you call your specific bank.
I called the bank and they were disconcertingly vague. I work for a bank, too! It is an incredible world we live in.
 
RevZMan123
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I know with Wise, once it's in their account you cannot take it back. You can cancel before then, but there's only about a 30 minute window for that and I wouldn't make the exchange until then.
 
paddymoran
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I also work for a bank and you can definitely call back direct debits (under SEPA - Single Euro Payments Area) but I’m not sure about inter bank transfers.

if it’s a face to face transaction and you both are in the one jurisdiction would you consider PayPal F&F (as there shouldn’t be a cost or exchange rate fees)?
Edited:
 
Fallout Boy
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paddymoran paddymoran
I also work for a bank and you can definitely call back direct debits (under SEPA - Single Euro Payments Area)

I doubt that! If the amount reaches the other bank: no chance to get the money back; this deal (by SEPA) is done.
Most of the business deals are founded on this agreement (for both sides). Cars and watches are traded (in Germany) this way: instant payment, take the car and drive away.
 
Faz
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Bank transfer and wire transfer are two different beasts. In a bank transfer, the sender can simply deposit a bad cheque into his account to transfer to your account or more simply, deposit said cheque into your account. It can be reversed as soon as it is found out the cheque is NSF. Very risky any many scams were made this way.

A wire transfer involves that the funds are verified and in “hand” of the bank executing the wire transfer to your account. As soon as the actual funds leave the bank into your account, the transaction can’t be reversed by the “sender”.

Edited
Edited:
 
TDBK
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john_coburg john_coburg
what extent does he have the ability to claw it back from me, once he's out of my sight?
It depends on the banking system, the transfer mechanism, and what your buyer is willing to do. Even wire transfers can be reversed in theory, but generally a customer can't do so, their bank has to do it, and they won't do so without believing it to be appropriate.

So your bank probably won't give a straight answer, because the answer depends on the circumstances: a guy not happy with a watch he bought probably can't get it reversed, but a company scammed by fraud into transferring a million-dollar payment to the wrong bank account might be able to. (Emphasis on might, there's a lot of horror stories where banks won't help reverse fraudulent transactions.)

Payments done through intermediaries who are trusted in the financial system can be riskier (e.g. PayPal has the ability to take money from your account with an ACH transfer, so they can potentially reverse a payment even if it has hit your bank account).

If you want to be safer, have a destination account with no money in it, and "sweep" it by moving the money to another account after the payment comes in. It is very unusual for a reversal to follow money after such a hop, and would require the cooperation of your bank.
 
inchpincher
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Fallout Boy Fallout Boy
I doubt that! If the amount reaches the other bank: no chance to get the money back; this deal (by SEPA) is done.
Most of the business deals are founded on this agreement (for both sides). Cars and watches are traded (in Germany) this way: instant payment, take the car and drive away.

The banks may have tightened the rules but there was definitely a scam in the UK a couple of years back where people were paying for goods in person with a ‘bank transfer’, whereas what they actually were doing was setting up a Direct Debit to the named recipient which by law could be reversed in the 24hr cooling off period. It would appear in the recipient’s bank account but then revert to the sender if they cancelled the DD.
 
paddymoran
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Fallout Boy Fallout Boy
I doubt that! If the amount reaches the other bank: no chance to get the money back; this deal (by SEPA) is done.
Most of the business deals are founded on this agreement (for both sides). Cars and watches are traded (in Germany) this way: instant payment, take the car and drive away.
Either party can definitely reverse a direct debit payment in Europe under SEPA after the payment has cleared (Google it if you don’t believe me!!) but we’re not talking about direct debits here. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t assume a cleared payment can’t be reversed. As has often been said here you’re buying a seller, not just an item and likewise you’re buying a buyer…
 
Fallout Boy
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inchpincher inchpincher
The banks may have tightened the rules but there was definitely a scam in the UK a couple of years back where people were paying for goods in person with a ‘bank transfer’, whereas what they actually were doing was setting up a Direct Debit to the named recipient which by law could be reversed in the 24hr cooling off period. It would appear in the recipient’s bank account but then revert to the sender if they cancelled the DD.
that was true due to british law/rules (?), I agree.
 
john_coburg
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Faz Faz
Bank transfer and wire transfer are two different beasts. In a bank transfer, the sender can simply deposit a bad cheque into his account to transfer to your account or more simply, deposit said cheque into your account. It can be reversed as soon as it is found out the cheque is NSF. Very risky any many scams were made this way.

A wire transfer involves that the funds are verified and in “hand” of the bank executing the wire transfer to your account. As soon as the actual funds leave the bank into your account, the transaction can’t be reversed.

Thank you for this distinction. So how can i tell whether i am receiving a bank transfer or a wire transfer? I have never seen this distinguished here in the UK.
 
Evitzee
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john_coburg john_coburg
Thank you for this distinction. So how can i tell whether i am receiving a bank transfer or a wire transfer? I have never seen this distinguished here in the UK.
Ask your bank what it is when it drops into your account. The other option is for him to pay in cash during the face to face inspection. In the end, cash is king.

'Buy the seller' works both ways, so 'buy the buyer'. If you think he is flaky don't do the deal.
Edited:
 
lucian23
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99.9 % when the money arrived in your bank account can't be reversed but the best advice which i read on the thread was to call to your bank and ask that. Maybe some banks have different aproach of this matter.
 
Fallout Boy
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inchpincher inchpincher
The banks may have tightened the rules but there was definitely a scam in the UK a couple of years back where people were paying for goods in person with a ‘bank transfer’, whereas what they actually were doing was setting up a Direct Debit to the named recipient which by law could be reversed in the 24hr cooling off period. It would appear in the recipient’s bank account but then revert to the sender if they cancelled the DD.

Fraud system earlier: A (Germany) offers car for the amount X, B (UK) agrees - payment in advance - car will be picked up later, A says: OK, B transfers X plus 4000. A reports: 4000 too much. B says: please refer 4000 back. A does this, B then cancels the amount X. "clever" action back then.
No chance to get that amount back, all covered by the (bank-) rules
 
Shabbaz
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When the money is on my account it's mine. You can do nothing about it.
 
bubba48
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In Italy we have the "instant transfer"; once sent it is impossible to reverse it.
Even a transfer to a branch of the same bank is irreversible.
Transfers between different banks can be canceled before 4pm.
 
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