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Relumed or not

A
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Hi all,

In your opinion has this watch been relumed? It should be a radium dial, but my concern is the colour on all the plots and hand is very consistent (which have read is a tell tale sign for a relume). But then there is some fragmentation which suggests age… Overall in my non-expert opinion it has been relumed but some years ago. Is this a fair assessment?

As a bonus question is there a visual way of determining if lume contains radium or tritium for these watches that are on the border of the transition? Or is a Geiger counter the only reliable method?

To be honest I am a little paranoid about radium mostly due to off gassing.

Thanks!
IMG_1154.webp IMG_1153.webp IMG_1152.webp
 
Dan S
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A geiger counter is the gold standard, and I don't know why you would consider any other less definitive method.
 
A
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Dan S Dan S
A geiger counter is the gold standard, and I don't know why you would consider any other less definitive method.
Unfortunately there is no possibility to view it in person so I have to rely on pictures. Are there any visual clues?

I have asked the seller if they have a Geiger counter already but it is probably unlikely.
 
Dan S
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If you are concerned about the safety of radium (personally I think this is unwarranted) then why would you be satisfied with a "clue?" There are certain general characteristics of different types of luminous materials that you are welcome to research, but I am always skeptical when someone claims that they can definitively identify the type of lume based on a couple of photos. It's an educated guess at best, lume ages in various ways depending on the formulation and environmental conditions.

If you want to avoid radium, I think you should simply assume that any watch with lume from the early 60s or earlier is not in your wheelhouse. Hoping that a watch has been re-lumed is not a viable strategy, and guessing based on anything other than an actual measurement is not definitive.
 
A
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Dan S Dan S
If you are concerned about the safety of radium (personally I think this is unwarranted) then why would you be satisfied with a "clue?" There are certain general characteristics of different types of luminous materials that you are welcome to research, but I am always skeptical when someone claims that they can definitively identify the type of lume based on a couple of photos. It's an educated guess at best, lume ages in various ways depending on the formulation and environmental conditions.

If you want to avoid radium, I think you should simply assume that any watch with lume from the early 60s or earlier is not in your wheelhouse. Hoping that a watch has been re-lumed is not a viable strategy, and guessing based on anything other than an actual measurement is not definitive.

But maybe a 2998-2 is worth growing a third eye for? Everyone would just admire the watch anyway!

But those are all very good points. It is very surprising how much the condition of the lume varies so I suppose unless the seller knows for certain I should just assume it is radium/what originally came on the watch.
 
CalgaryJim
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A AHW
But maybe a 2998-2 is worth growing a third eye for? Everyone would just admire the watch anyway!

But those are all very good points. It is very surprising how much the condition of the lume varies so I suppose unless the seller knows for certain I should just assume it is radium/what originally came on the watch.
In my opinion, including having had conversations with and purchased a watch from @Dan S , I’d be very comfortable with his comment about the safety of radium.
 
Aludic
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Well, following the auction of this piece yesterday, I'm pretty sure the consensus is that this piece is at least very desirable, and possibly fully original. The combination of a nice 2998 dial with short indices (2998-1 or 2998-2 only), a lollipop and a rather okay Base1000 bezel, packed up in a reasonably well preserved case with a 321 movement in the correct serial range did attract a lot of bidding action.

In spite of having monitored the Speedmaster market quite rigorously over the past years, I've seen few Lollipop's come to market in a condition even remotely as nice as this one. So, I was tempted, of course.

I am sure some of us, including @hansaboy and myself witnessed the bidding, which was pretty strong on some early Rolexes (early 6542, a 5510, and more) that were auctioned off in the same session, as well as on the 2915-2 that followed after this one.

TLDR: this watch sold - head only - for approx. 27k EUR including the Buyers Premium. Pretty strong result and unfortunately well above my own highest bid. Bear in mind that an UK based auction implies import charges on top of this price for anyone outside of the UK.

Hopefully we'll see it resurface in the hands of a collector here soon. 🤞So, did anyone here snag this one up?


More pictures can be found here: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...0217/lot-ac747c96-cdf2-4e04-9164-b3f000c4c428

For posterity the most important ones can be found here:
255f2c67-eca5-4de9-be37-b3f000dc08a8.webp c2a196df-812f-4ae6-9044-b3f000db80a3.webp
 
A
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Aludic Aludic
Well, following the auction of this piece yesterday, I'm pretty sure the consensus is that this piece is at least very desirable, and possibly fully original. The combination of a nice 2998 dial with short indices (2998-1 or 2998-2 only), a lollipop and a rather okay Base1000 bezel, packed up in a reasonably well preserved case with a 321 movement in the correct serial range did attract a lot of bidding action.

In spite of having monitored the Speedmaster market quite rigorously over the past years, I've seen few Lollipop's come to market in a condition even remotely as nice as this one. So, I was tempted, of course.

I am sure some of us, including @hansaboy and myself witnessed the bidding, which was pretty strong on some early Rolexes (early 6542, a 5510, and more) that were auctioned off in the same session, as well as on the 2915-2 that followed after this one.

TLDR: this watch sold - head only - for approx. 27k EUR including the Buyers Premium. Pretty strong result and unfortunately well above my own highest bid. Bear in mind that an UK based auction implies import charges on top of this price for anyone outside of the UK.

Hopefully we'll see it resurface in the hands of a collector here soon. 🤞So, did anyone here snag this one up?


More pictures can be found here: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...0217/lot-ac747c96-cdf2-4e04-9164-b3f000c4c428

For posterity the most important ones can be found here:
255f2c67-eca5-4de9-be37-b3f000dc08a8.webp c2a196df-812f-4ae6-9044-b3f000db80a3.webp
Unfortunately it was well beyond my budget as well, but the auctioneer did check with a Geiger counter for me and the reading was low so he assumed it had been relumed in the past.
 
Aludic
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A AHW
Unfortunately it was well beyond my budget as well, but the auctioneer did check with a Geiger counter for me and the reading was low so he assumed it had been relumed in the past.

Interesting. And could be true. It could also point to tritium rather than radium, which according to several sources (MWO, Sm101) a possibility too. Either way; it got expensive.
 
southtexas
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how did the 2915 do in that auction? I saw lots of interesting items!

disregard i found the link...33,000 pounds
 
hansaboy
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Aludic Aludic
Well, following the auction of this piece yesterday, I'm pretty sure the consensus is that this piece is at least very desirable, and possibly fully original. The combination of a nice 2998 dial with short indices (2998-1 or 2998-2 only), a lollipop and a rather okay Base1000 bezel, packed up in a reasonably well preserved case with a 321 movement in the correct serial range did attract a lot of bidding action.

In spite of having monitored the Speedmaster market quite rigorously over the past years, I've seen few Lollipop's come to market in a condition even remotely as nice as this one. So, I was tempted, of course.

I am sure some of us, including @hansaboy and myself witnessed the bidding, which was pretty strong on some early Rolexes (early 6542, a 5510, and more) that were auctioned off in the same session, as well as on the 2915-2 that followed after this one.

TLDR: this watch sold - head only - for approx. 27k EUR including the Buyers Premium. Pretty strong result and unfortunately well above my own highest bid. Bear in mind that an UK based auction implies import charges on top of this price for anyone outside of the UK.

Hopefully we'll see it resurface in the hands of a collector here soon. 🤞So, did anyone here snag this one up?


More pictures can be found here: https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/...0217/lot-ac747c96-cdf2-4e04-9164-b3f000c4c428

For posterity the most important ones can be found here:
255f2c67-eca5-4de9-be37-b3f000dc08a8.webp c2a196df-812f-4ae6-9044-b3f000db80a3.webp


I can only agree with @Aludic !
What an intense auction, and the auction house is very skilled in marketing with social media, and it was on every major platform also.
So a lot of coverage!

The 2998 looked very promising, my Watchometer really lighted up,
but I also felt that this one would go for a very high price - so no Masterplan…..
But I did a guess, and I missed it with roughly 20%…😬
With that price it got, that placed the watch in the Excellent category!
I do think that 2998´s seldom come up for auctions, and when they do (the nice ones…) they will be heavily fought over!
 
hansaboy
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southtexas southtexas
how did the 2915 do in that auction? I saw lots of interesting items!

disregard i found the link...33,000 pounds
And plus the premium!
 
hansaboy
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southtexas southtexas
how did the 2915 do in that auction? I saw lots of interesting items!

disregard i found the link...33,000 pounds
Lots and lots of bids on this one also!

But the condition was not the best....
The auction house knew what they had, I think there were over 30 pictures on the website!
And the silly low estimate, 5-10k £ (plus the premium) is an insult!
 
Spacefruit
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The great thing about auctions is when they exceed the estimate there has to be two bidders at least.

The 2998 was fantastic spec. Very unusual to see offered in public.

The 2915 was a bargain when you look at previous public sales and even recent eBay/ dealer offerings. As I have always said you can’t be too picky with a 2915 if you want to own one. Unless you want to spend $200k

Anyway all in all encouraging results for those of us with similar watches that became unsalable after the Phillips/omega incident.

I think interest and confidence is returning to vintage speedmasters.
 
A
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
The great thing about auctions is when they exceed the estimate there has to be two bidders at least.
Personally I find it very unfair how people with more money than myself are allowed to bid against me!
 
Spacefruit
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Agree. And you have to trust that then auctioneer is not making bids up. Or allowing fake bids.
 
Harbormaster
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Spacefruit Spacefruit
Agree. And you have to trust that then auctioneer is not making bids up. Or allowing fake bids.
Is that really a thing? It sounds like big trouble for the auctioneer if anyone found that out.
 
Subspecies
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hansaboy hansaboy
And plus the premium!
Could someone clarify please, Aludic in an earlier post says that it sold for 27k euros including commission. Whereas southtexas is saying 33k gbp and hansaboy is saying 33k gbp plus commission?
 
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