Railmaster 2914-5 PAF -- but.....

momosono · Apr 12, 2018

Just regarding the "strength" of the radium the following observation:
I have these two Omega pocketwatches which - to my untrained eye - look more or less the same.

I had them tested at the local university and the one on the left (slightly darker Radium) got a reading of 17 µSv/h whereas the one on the right emits only 4 µSv/h
They both are GSTP and have a F04xxx number (anybody happen to know if that means anything in particular?) and have been in the family since over 50 years. And they haven't been serviced in that period. (I know, there are some dots astray on both and the hour hand of the one on the right lost some radium, but that's not where the difference comes from)
To get to the point: very similar watches, same brand, same size, same age but very different emission of the radium. So I get the impression that a Geiger counter reading doesn't always have to be a sure sign of Radium having been tinkered with.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

TOTIZ · Apr 12, 2018

I‘m no expert on lume, but I am ex Military so perhaps I can come at this conundrum from a different angle. Is it possible that one of two things happened here ?
1. The re-lume was, for whatever reason, either a botch job or a quick fix. Was earmarked to be re-lumed properly at a later date and it just never happened.

2. It was mentioned earlier on the thread that military watch servicing wasn’t always done by the most experienced watchmakers. Could it just be a simple case of a qualified, yet inexperienced watchmaker applying the wrong compound ?

Having done my time and seeing enough low tech repairs on high tech equipment, it wouldn’t actually surprise me.

padders · Apr 12, 2018

momosono
Just regarding the "strength" of the radium the following observation:
I have these two Omega pocketwatches which - to my untrained eye - look more or less the same.

I had them tested at the local university and the one on the left (slightly darker Radium) got a reading of 17 µSv/h whereas the one on the right emits only 4 µSv/h
They both are GSTP and have a F04xxx number (anybody happen to know if that means anything in particular?) and have been in the family since over 50 years. And they haven't been serviced in that period. (I know, there are some dots astray on both and the hour hand of the one on the right lost some radium, but that's not where the difference comes from)
To get to the point: very similar watches, same brand, same size, same age but very different emission of the radium. So I get the impression that a Geiger counter reading doesn't always have to be a sure sign of Radium having been tinkered with.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Well to my untrained eye, the one on the left has had lume liberally added to the hands and dial, as evidenced by the fact it is covering the cathedral hand section partitions and if so would naturally have higher emissions if this was done with more radium paint.

momosono · Apr 13, 2018

padders
Well to my untrained eye, the one on the left has had lume liberally added to the hands and dial, as evidenced by the fact it is covering the cathedral hand section partitions and if so would naturally have higher emissions if this was done with more radium paint.

Well looking with a 16x loupe the thickness seems the same. Its mainly the color that differs, but anyhow a factor >4 just because of a slight difference in thickness?

padders · Apr 13, 2018

momosono
Well looking with a 16x loupe the thickness seems the same. Its mainly the color that differs, but anyhow a factor >4 just because of a slight difference in thickness?

The metalwork on the LHS one is covered in lume, the one on the right isn't. Doesn't that suggest to you that lume has been added? I am not suggesting recently, this was likely done in period but it sure looks that way to me. These do indeed look like GSTP watches, which were presumably regularly serviced by MOS or WO personnel without too much consideration for aesthetics, more for practicality and function. Yes I can fully believe that a good coating of radium paint will give a much higher reading that the original skim. How do they behave under UV? That may be instructive bearing in mind the main topic here about older radium vs tritium on the OP RM.

Fost · Apr 13, 2018

padders
The metalwork on the LHS one is covered in lume, the one on the right isn't. Doesn't that suggest to you that lume has been added? I am not suggesting recently, this was likely done in period but it sure looks that way to me. These do indeed look like GSTP watches, which were presumably regularly serviced by MOS or WO personnel without too much consideration for aesthetics, more for practicality and function. Yes I can fully believe that a good coating of radium paint will give a much higher reading that the original skim. How do they behave under UV? That may be instructive bearing in mind the main topic here about older radium vs tritium on the OP RM.

i am thinking that hands on the left are mounted on the wrong face...

padders · Apr 13, 2018

Fost
i am thinking that hands on the left are mounted on the wrong face...

Wrong way round you mean? Yes I Hadn't thought of that.

Fost · Apr 13, 2018

Yes it looks like the backside of the hands where the lume is applied.

Dash1 · Apr 13, 2018

This is the closest I've ever come to owning a PAF 2914 (dial sold long ago before anyone asks) I didn't own a Geiger counter or UV light at the time unfortunately.

kox · Apr 13, 2018

oddboy
My understanding (including watches I've measured myself) is that a radium dial should measure at least 2000 cpm. This is obviously not in the ball park. It is further my understanding that all Railmasters - including PAF's - up to 135.004 should be radium (despite the fact that other contemporary watches - like Speedmasters - were already transitioning to tritium). So, looks like this dial has been relumed.

FWIW @oddboy, I found a recent geiger resultat of my 2914-3 to compare with. Maybe not the highest radium resultat outthere but still well into the "danger" zone. And even if the PAF dials were made in another batch, it would be very strange with such a big difference in radiation. BTW: the 2914-5 PAF's were produced in 1960, so that would still be the normal radium periode for Omega for all the masters, also the early 2998s produced in 1960. The transition was a couple of years later.
Just to completely rule out the use of tritium from the factory on the OP PAF ... unless PAF ordered them with tritium 🤔 Properly not, but maybe they were/became aware of the radium problems, just like the RAF with the 2777 FA vs TA. And just like the RAF they changed the lume themselves inhouse (well RAF also repainted the dial)...perhaps not to a very high standard, but still? And we do consider the 2777-1 FA a legit version, don't we?
The dial does look affected by radium burns, but then again these dials are made of iron and it could also just be some oxidation marks.
Random thoughts over ☕

And a wristshot to keep your lust for one burning. They really are great watches. And funny enough, I sold my 105.002 to make room for this one ...and still haven't regretted it for a minute 😉

oddboy · Apr 13, 2018

That's a nice one!

gemini4 · Apr 13, 2018

Dash1
This is the closest I've ever come to owning a PAF 2914 (dial sold long ago before anyone asks) I didn't own a Geiger counter or UV light at the time unfortunately.

Hey Ash. Aren't the Flightmaster dials only FAP issue??
I thought the PAF had Seamaster dials?

Syrte · Apr 13, 2018

michael e
Probably all of the PAF Railmasters I have seen have had a pretty tough life, sloppy tritium relumed dials or dials that had no lume at all.
I think the PAF service dept used whatever was at hand including hands, dials and movement parts with no regard to how the watch would look visually. I have seen mixed dials between 2914s and 135s, dials with Tritium lume which is sometimes smeared over the edges of the plots, many dials with empty lume plots, which always look better filled with a substitute, I have seen stick service hands with tritium on both references, polished case backs and mid cases, all sorts of engraving both done by hand and machine. Different crowns, wrong plexi glasses.
I have yet to see one in perfect nick.

I rarely see PAF Railmasters for sale these days, the last one I saw was price on request which always means, very expensive.

Military watches can be a bit grubby and that is acceptable for a lot of collectors.

You can of course use radium to fill the plots again, but just be very careful with it.

Cheers, Michael

Didn't you auction off a relumed one (properly disclosed at such) for about 13K euros or 13K dollars a couple years ago ?
Edit / add: the point being that a very nicely relumed one can be pretty damn valuable.

gemini4 · Apr 13, 2018

Syrte
Didn't you auction off a relumed one (properly disclosed at such) for about 13K euros or 13K dollars a couple years ago ?

Please don't bring up @michael e past sales of Railmaster. I still regret letting a 2914-2 of his slip away on Ebay 2 years ago 🙁

adam78 · Apr 13, 2018

kov
My personal rule is that the luminous material is supposed to glow under UV. A dial or hands not glowing under UV will be automatically excluded from my potential purchases.

Then you will be denying yourself the pleasure of owning most 1970s-80s Rolex Subs, GMTs, Explorers, et al...As @t_swiss_t mentions, these particular tritium mixes rarely glow anymore with UV.

kov · Apr 13, 2018

adam78
Then you will be denying yourself the pleasure of owning most 1970s-80s Rolex Subs, GMTs, Explorers, et al..

True. Good coincidence, I have never been interested into Rolex. Problem solved 😀

michael e · Apr 13, 2018

Syrte
Didn't you auction off a relumed one (properly disclosed at such) for about 13K euros or 13K dollars a couple years ago ?
Edit / add: the point being that a very nicely relumed one can be pretty damn valuable.

I can’t remember the price paid TBH but I had a fair few of these PAFs and other Railmasters, these watches seem to elude me now and if I ever see them the prices certainly do.
Well deserved though.
Cheers, Michael

watchyouwant · Apr 13, 2018

Michael, that is a FAP/Peru. Not PAF/Pakistan. kind regards. achim

michael e · Apr 14, 2018

watchyouwant
Michael, that is a FAP/Peru. Not PAF/Pakistan. kind regards. achim

I think you mean Ash?
The Flightmaster dial was never mine, wish it was though.
Cheers, Michael

watchyouwant · Apr 14, 2018

oh oh..... getting old..... yes, dash 1 dial. i still have my FAP Flightmaster . kind regards. achim

Railmaster 2914-5 PAF -- but.....

momosono

TOTIZ

padders

momosono

padders

Fost

padders

Fost

Dash1

kox

oddboy

gemini4

Syrte

gemini4

adam78

kov

michael e

watchyouwant

michael e

watchyouwant

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