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Radium dials and hands - remove, restore and relume? Advice welcomed

R
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Hello

A few years ago I was lucky enough to spot a lovely 27 Chro C12 T2 from the 1940s which I believe to be a 2439 and of course the precursor to the 321 calibre. It was in Australia and well priced, so I picked it up. I’ve worn it for quite a few of those years, but more recently I’ve become concerned about the safety aspects of the radium on my wrist each day, and on the bed stand each night. I even tested it with a Geiger counter over the course of a week, and the count was pretty terrifying.

Anyway, I’d always enjoyed the patina, but given it now sits in a drawer in a ziplock bag, I wondered whether I should get a specialist to carefully remove the radium and relume it. And of course whilst they were doing that, in theory they could do some restoration to the face as well. As you can see from the photos, the radium paint appears fairly ‘loosely’ applied to the numbers, and so I have wondered if it was reapplied some time after manufacture… or maybe that was just the era?

There are so many questions floating around in my head.
1. Does removing the radium paint negatively impact the value of the watch?
2. Should I have the dial and hands relumed, and if so, what with?
3. Would restoring the dial (even lightly) impact the value of the watch?
4. Does anyone have any experience of having this done to their watches, or have any suggestions about who I should use. I am based in the UK.

Finally, if you have any comments of thoughts on the watch itself, I’d be keen to hear them. I’ve never found an exact match for this watch before.

Many thanks for any wisdom shared. Much appreciated.
 
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Foo2rama
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I wouldn’t alter that watch at all.

new lume will highlight the dial patina. And any restoration of the dial will reduce value.
 
X350 XJR
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You're going to get hit by a car long before you get radiation poising.
 
seekingseaquest
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If you’re nervous, sell the watch and buy a non-luminous one (many of these were non-luminous). It prevents irreversible damage to the watch and will give you more peace of mind, given radium dust may remain on the dial.

Re:radium health concerns, make your own decision. I personally only collect non-luminous watches.
 
ErichPryde
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R Radiumjapes
Hello
I’ve become concerned about the safety aspects of the radium on my wrist each day, and on the bed stand each night. I even tested it with a Geiger counter over the course of a week, and the count was pretty terrifying.

With the radiation that is put off by a radium dial like this, the major concern is if you are able to inhale a large amount of the luminous material itself, either because you attempted to take the watch apart and were removing that luminous material, or if you somehow or other managed to crush the dial and crystal and then further somehow manage to inhale a large amount of the luminous material. This is because the major threat here is from the alpha particles, but only if the source of those particles is inside of you. Alpha particles are stopped by pretty much anything and cannot penetrate your skin. However, once you've consumed or inhaled the emitter, they can cause damage to the sensitive tissues of your lungs (in the case of inhalation) or to your bones via absorption (if you've ingested it). Definitely an interesting topic to read more about if you're curious how it works, but the essential bottom line is that as long as the dial is intact and the crystal is in good shape, that dial is essentially harmless to you.

HOWEVER- how you feel about that reality is a lot more important than the reality itself, in this case. if it bothers you, there's no reason to keep it.

...the radium paint appears fairly ‘loosely’ applied to the numbers, and so I have wondered if it was reapplied some time after manufacture… or maybe that was just the era?

It's possible, but it's also possible that the radium in the paint just destroyed the paint enough that it flaked that way, or that some combination of time and radium and other forces of age caused the damage collectively.

As far as your questions go, if you don't mind destroying the value of the watch, you could opt to totally re-do the dial, but touching up the numbers would highlight the dial wear (as @Foo2rama mentioned) and any work to the dial would count as a "re-dial" or "re-finished dial."

Your choice. My thought is, however, that if you're worried about the radium you'll always have lingering concerns about its presence. I'd just move this one on if it were me.
 
Dan S
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Just sell it and avoid radium watches in the future if it concerns you.
 
gbesq
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Other than having developed the ability to fly and propel myself at almost limitless speed, I haven't noticed any side effects from wearing my watches with radium lume.
 
Davidt
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As to who could do it, the only person I’d trust would be James Hyman in the UK. He’s an absolute magician and could use ‘aged’ coloured compound to remain in keeping with the dial.

Whether you should or not is very subjective. It’s your watch and if you love it and if you’re not concerned about value, do what makes you happy. I’d wager with the dial in this condition, a good, sympathetic relume wouldn’t have a negative impact on value anyway
 
Syrte
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One of those came up for sale some years ago,
And unless it was this one they all appear to show similar levels of dial degradation.
As said, reluming will kill the value of the watch not just loosing originality but as @Foo2rama said the consistency of the dial.
also agree the radium may well have caused the varnish degradation.
 
gmmy775
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zedlebowski zedlebowski
I found this website to be informative: https://www.vintagegoldwatches.com/2023/09/are-radium-dial-watches-dangerous/

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned wearing a radium watch occasionally but wouldn't wear one daily.

I also avoid storing radium watches in enclosed spaces to allow any radon to accumulate.
You are commended for furnishing this link. This is the best easy to digest article I have read on the topic of radium use on dials. Thank you
 
R
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zedlebowski zedlebowski
I found this website to be informative: https://www.vintagegoldwatches.com/2023/09/are-radium-dial-watches-dangerous/

Personally, I wouldn't be concerned wearing a radium watch occasionally but wouldn't wear one daily.

I also avoid storing radium watches in enclosed spaces to allow any radon to accumulate.

Thank you. This is interesting, and it’s absolutely the radon issue that I was more concerned about. Lots of people tend to focus only on the alpha particles and how you would need to breath in or ingest the radium dust itself to cause an issue, when it’s actually much more complicated than that. As I mentioned I literally tested this on a shelf with a Geiger counter a while ago, and I’ve just rerun some tests. Now I remember why I was concerned…

I attach the photos, but as you can see, immediately in front of the dial (where you are unlikely to be, unless you fall asleep with your watch on?), it goes off the scale and records something over 9.99 micro Sieverts per hour. Measured from behind the watch case (ie your wrist), the dose is 2.18 micro Sieverts per hour. Finally, six inches in front of the face, it’s 1.55 micro Sieverts per hour.

As can be seen from the final image “How much is dangerous” which came with the Geiger counter, it states that 1.25 micro Sieverts per hour gives you a real risk of cancer if exposed for a year. That’s much below what your wrist would experience, and who knows how long you’d have to be near the face for it to be a concern.

Anyway, hopefully someone will find this helpful, and from real-world data.
 
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R
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
I wouldn’t alter that watch at all.

new lume will highlight the dial patina. And any restoration of the dial will reduce value.

Many thanks. I fear you are right. Tricky issue as I loved wearing it, but given the real-world ration risk (see my reply to someone below with Geiger test data I just ran), it feels fool hard to wear it
 
R
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ErichPryde ErichPryde
With the radiation that is put off by a radium dial like this, the major concern is if you are able to inhale a large amount of the luminous material itself, either because you attempted to take the watch apart and were removing that luminous material, or if you somehow or other managed to crush the dial and crystal and then further somehow manage to inhale a large amount of the luminous material. This is because the major threat here is from the alpha particles, but only if the source of those particles is inside of you. Alpha particles are stopped by pretty much anything and cannot penetrate your skin. However, once you've consumed or inhaled the emitter, they can cause damage to the sensitive tissues of your lungs (in the case of inhalation) or to your bones via absorption (if you've ingested it). Definitely an interesting topic to read more about if you're curious how it works, but the essential bottom line is that as long as the dial is intact and the crystal is in good shape, that dial is essentially harmless to you.

Many thanks for the detailed reply. I don’t think the major threat is from the (mainly) alpha particles from the radium itself (which as you correctly say need ingesting etc), but from the Radon gas, which also emits alpha. You might be interested to see the test I just ran with the Geiger counter again, both from the crystal and reverse sides. Photos in my reply to Zedlebowski. Pretty scary data if if we’re to wear this full time - like I used to
 
R
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Foo2rama Foo2rama
I wouldn’t alter that watch at all.

new lume will highlight the dial patina. And any restoration of the dial will reduce value.

Many thanks. I think you’re right. I’d just like to wear it again…!
 
R
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X350 XJR X350 XJR
You're going to get hit by a car long before you get radiation poising.

sadly my test data I just posted as a reply to Zedlebowski suggests otherwise - although I’d prefer neither!
 
R
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Davidt Davidt
As to who could do it, the only person I’d trust would be James Hyman in the UK. He’s an absolute magician and could use ‘aged’ coloured compound to remain in keeping with the dial.

Whether you should or not is very subjective. It’s your watch and if you love it and if you’re not concerned about value, do what makes you happy. I’d wager with the dial in this condition, a good, sympathetic relume wouldn’t have a negative impact on value anyway

Many thanks. I reached out to James and he wasn’t keen to remove the radium sadly, but was happy to relume after someone else had done so.
 
gbesq
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But again, let’s not forget about the possible benefits:

Seriously, I am mindful of the dangers associated with the buildup of radon gas from a collection of radium dialed watches stored in a confined space. The same goes for the inhalation of airborne particles of disintegrated radium lume. Hint: leave the servicing of these watches to a professional. Both of these risks are something that can be anticipated and planned for. I am much less concerned with radioactive exposure associated with the judicious wearing of radium dialed watches in rotation with other watches.
 
ErichPryde
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R Radiumjapes
Many thanks for the detailed reply. I don’t think the major threat is from the (mainly) alpha particles from the radium itself (which as you correctly say need ingesting etc), but from the Radon gas, which also emits alpha. You might be interested to see the test I just ran with the Geiger counter again, both from the crystal and reverse sides. Photos in my reply to Zedlebowski. Pretty scary data if if we’re to wear this full time - like I used to

Definitely interesting to see your sievert readings. I found this article that outlines similar concerns about radium. Since you have real-world data to back up your concerns, just move the watch on. No style should be worth the concern or real risk of cancer.
 
R
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gbesq gbesq
But again, let’s not forget about the possible benefits:

Seriously, I am mindful of the dangers associated with the buildup of radon gas from a collection of radium dialed watches stored in a confined space. The same goes for the inhalation of airborne particles of disintegrated radium lume. Hint: leave the servicing of these watches to a professional. Both of these risks are something that can be anticipated and planned for. I am much less concerned with radioactive exposure associated with the judicious wearing of radium dialed watches in rotation with other watches.

yup, the rotation point is a good one. I don’t have enough really nice watches to be able to rotate effectively though. Yes, maybe that’s my issue… “Dear wife, for health reasons, I need to get some more nice watches…” ;-)
 
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