Polerouter Sub dials *without* Polerouter Sub text--request for clarification

You guys are so touchy (I appreciate that), but according to this forum, I tought that Universal was a bit fuzzy in their production and quality... 😕

By now we should have seen a flood in the market of the non subs if some sort of foul play was involved? I am the owner of one of these examples and have no clue as to what i have so i thew it in my watch junk drawer. I am willing to offer my watch for evaluation to any experts who are willing to take a close look at it. my watch is nowhere as clean as the other examples that have shown up.

I would be happy to take a look at it. I am as baffled as most. It would be good to put this one to bed. I am in the UK. One thing i would like to do is remove the dial and look for the singer stamp on back. That would tell us beyond any reasonable doubt that it is original (which I believe it is) and also provide some sort of time line as there are subtle differences between earlier dials by singer.

Establishing originality of the dial may not tell us if it is a service replacement but it may go some way to determining chronology if there is one. As far as seeing lots of them, well, that is debatable. Lets face it, although available in small quantities, original movements, hands, crowns and cases are just as rare as watches. Therefore, it is unlikely that there will be such a flood unless someone has gone through the trouble of setting up a production plant for the rest of the parts ...

I think there are a couple of issues here:

1. Amount of lume
2. Type of lume (colour, chemical properties ((tritium or other), etc ...)
3. Position
4. luminosity of lume

One test I would like to do is see how well the recent finds lume, lumes. If it is tritium, I expect an on/off luminosity as tritium 's half life is around 12 years, therefore by now, there will be very little that still lumes ...

While we have found some variation in positioning, it is pretty clear that the amount and color is inconsistent. I don't think we are at the point where we can safely say that "anything goes" as far as originality is concerned. I think it is a bit early to come to conclusions.

I will take apart my watch this evening and try to take some high res photographs of the dial front and back and all other components. Can the experts compile a list of what information i should document?

Thanks

Ok, lets start with these photos. Hands off movement and dial out of the case. Let me know what you think of the pics, if not good enough I need to source a micro lens.

Thank you more pictures to come. I have already given the serial and model to diabolik, bit will post again, getting the dial off the movement.

View attachment 327461 View attachment 327462 View attachment 327463 View attachment 327464 View attachment 327465 View attachment 327466

Sorry gentlemen, this dial has never been removed or touched. Clearly marked singer. I will not assemble till all request have been satisfied.

Model # on case back 869109/01
Serial # 2405xxx

There is no doubt that it is an original dial and of period. However, There is an irregularity when compared to the menta sub dial. Your vertical 12 To 6 cross hair stops short of the "geneve" script on dial. There is a gap. it is as if for some reason or other the polerouter sub script was missed out purposely.

Lume color, shade, spacing and position is more in line other vintage sub dials and not menta sub dials ...

Raises more questions than answers. Perhaps dial did not pass quality control or is a service dial.

So can I ask the panel what is the final verdict on my watch? my opinion after careful analysis of all components and considering manufacturing process is that my watch was a survivor of a batch of dials that that during the silk-screening process omitted the "polerouter sub" accidentally and was not Rejected by the Quality assurance process in place at the time. The ones that were Rejected were re-worked to reapply the missing model name "polerouter Sub" (easily done since it required a different font style) and the one I have in my possession and maybe a few others were assemble and distributed for sale. One of the main arguments for my analysis is Diabolik's observation of the gap spacing after Genève is the perfect dimension to accommodate the "Polerouter Sub"

There are a number of factors to consider here.

The "polerouter sub" script appears from the earliest serial numbers of the second generation, first execution of the polerouter sub models. I have scoured the internet and asked the experts (as well as a former UG watchmaker) and there does not seem to be any records of polerouter dials without the "polerouter sub" script.

The menta watch had a very early serial (2.3 mil) as well as the "TA" appended or "type automatic" confirming it was a very early execution. It also has crosshairs that follow all the way through to the "geneve" script. I could accept that the menta was the first of a batch, however I would have expected any others in the batch to have had serial numbers that were very close and a similar layout of dial. However, that is not the case.

Your sub is quite unique in that the cross hairs that end early.

I am leaning towards factory replacement service dials which was quite common practice in the 60s and 70s, not just for the subs but other models such as the tri compax . Another possibility is that they are part of a batch of dials that had failed quality control and somehow found their way to the open market back in the 70s.

I still think that there is something peculiar and interesting about the menta sub as it seems to be unique (hands, dial and serial number) so could well be a very rare execution or prototype as @jordn has mentioned. One thing that does not convince me though is the lume ...

Guys - been following the thread, just been super busy. I'll add some of my thoughts later. In the meantime, I finally got my hand on the recent pickup. Attaching some dial shots, I'll have to take it off later and flip it over later. More to come!

Awsome, keep them coming. I look forward to additional pictures.

Then there's the Polerouter Sub Space Compax 1st gen with the US Navy Bezel..... ?!