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Polerouter Sub dials *without* Polerouter Sub text--request for clarification

  1. 10H10 Jan 5, 2017

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    You guys are so touchy (I appreciate that), but according to this forum, I tought that Universal was a bit fuzzy in their production and quality... ::confused2::
     
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  2. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 5, 2017

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    By now we should have seen a flood in the market of the non subs if some sort of foul play was involved? I am the owner of one of these examples and have no clue as to what i have so i thew it in my watch junk drawer. I am willing to offer my watch for evaluation to any experts who are willing to take a close look at it. my watch is nowhere as clean as the other examples that have shown up.
     
  3. Diabolik Jan 6, 2017

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    I would be happy to take a look at it. I am as baffled as most. It would be good to put this one to bed. I am in the UK. One thing i would like to do is remove the dial and look for the singer stamp on back. That would tell us beyond any reasonable doubt that it is original (which I believe it is) and also provide some sort of time line as there are subtle differences between earlier dials by singer.

    Establishing originality of the dial may not tell us if it is a service replacement but it may go some way to determining chronology if there is one. As far as seeing lots of them, well, that is debatable. Lets face it, although available in small quantities, original movements, hands, crowns and cases are just as rare as watches. Therefore, it is unlikely that there will be such a flood unless someone has gone through the trouble of setting up a production plant for the rest of the parts ...
     
  4. tomvox1 Jan 6, 2017

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    Excellent & thank you! I think sample size is beginning to point to a pretty good amount of variability in "6" lume application even on established SUB dials. Now just how much variability one is willing to accept as "factory original" I guess is up to the individual. ;)
    Thanks again & best,
    T.
     
  5. Diabolik Jan 6, 2017

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    I think there are a couple of issues here:

    1. Amount of lume
    2. Type of lume (colour, chemical properties ((tritium or other), etc ...)
    3. Position
    4. luminosity of lume

    One test I would like to do is see how well the recent finds lume, lumes. If it is tritium, I expect an on/off luminosity as tritium 's half life is around 12 years, therefore by now, there will be very little that still lumes ...

    While we have found some variation in positioning, it is pretty clear that the amount and color is inconsistent. I don't think we are at the point where we can safely say that "anything goes" as far as originality is concerned. I think it is a bit early to come to conclusions.
     
  6. tomvox1 Jan 6, 2017

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    Agreed for the most part but with some mitigating factors to add:
    -The color difference might just come down to storage method, i.e. on watches that have been "in the wild" for all these years it may appear less green, as opposed to a cache of NOS dials stored in controlled conditions.
    -Alternately a different lume compound may have been used between different watches perhaps due to different chronology. For example, if these non-SUB dials are in fact later service dials from the 70s, the lume compound may have changed in that decade or so interval leading to more green phosphors in the mix.
    -Finally, in my experience vintage watch Tritium luminosity varies greatly by manufacturer and era. While watches market with T used Tritium as an exciter, many brands also have dials that still react to light and glow (albeit sometimes rather briefly in duration). For example, Rolex lume from the 1970s is essentially dead even on the highly luminous sports models (Sub, GMT, Explorer) while some of their 60s lume will still react to light and self-glow in total darkness, while almost all Omega lume from that same period is still light reactive and will glow. A lot of this has to do with the lume composition and likely the amount of phosphors like zinc oxide in the mix during a given time period.
    Just some more food for thought as we start to catalog these examples.
    Best regards,
    T.
     
  7. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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    I will take apart my watch this evening and try to take some high res photographs of the dial front and back and all other components. Can the experts compile a list of what information i should document?

    Thanks
     
  8. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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    IMG_2071.JPG IMG_2072.JPG IMG_2073.JPG Ok, lets start with these photos. Hands off movement and dial out of the case. Let me know what you think of the pics, if not good enough I need to source a micro lens.
     
    Edited Jan 6, 2017
  9. tomvox1 Jan 6, 2017

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    This is pretty awesome. To me this definitely looks like an older dial. Note the hand-drag circle and the rather standard aged appearance of the luminous. Doesn't mean that the recent super fresh ones couldn't be from a NOS cache but this dial certainly doesn't appear to be.
    Can you provide the case reference & serial numbers as a further data point?
    Thanks for being so brave and willing to share -- big kudos! :thumbsup:
    Best regards,
    Tom
     
  10. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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    Thank you more pictures to come. I have already given the serial and model to diabolik, bit will post again, getting the dial off the movement.
     
  11. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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  12. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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    IMG_2096.JPG IMG_2099.JPG
    Sorry gentlemen, this dial has never been removed or touched. Clearly marked singer. I will not assemble till all request have been satisfied.
     
    IMG_2100.JPG IMG_2101.JPG IMG_2102.JPG IMG_2103.JPG IMG_2104.JPG IMG_2105.JPG IMG_2106.JPG IMG_2107.JPG
    Edited Jan 6, 2017
  13. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 6, 2017

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    Model # on case back 869109/01
    Serial # 2405xxx
     
  14. Diabolik Jan 7, 2017

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    There is no doubt that it is an original dial and of period. However, There is an irregularity when compared to the menta sub dial. Your vertical 12 To 6 cross hair stops short of the "geneve" script on dial. There is a gap. it is as if for some reason or other the polerouter sub script was missed out purposely.

    Lume color, shade, spacing and position is more in line other vintage sub dials and not menta sub dials ...

    Raises more questions than answers. Perhaps dial did not pass quality control or is a service dial.
     
    Edited Jan 9, 2017
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  15. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 9, 2017

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    So can I ask the panel what is the final verdict on my watch? my opinion after careful analysis of all components and considering manufacturing process is that my watch was a survivor of a batch of dials that that during the silk-screening process omitted the "polerouter sub" accidentally and was not Rejected by the Quality assurance process in place at the time. The ones that were Rejected were re-worked to reapply the missing model name "polerouter Sub" (easily done since it required a different font style) and the one I have in my possession and maybe a few others were assemble and distributed for sale. One of the main arguments for my analysis is Diabolik's observation of the gap spacing after Genève is the perfect dimension to accommodate the "Polerouter Sub"
     
    Edited Jan 9, 2017
  16. Diabolik Jan 10, 2017

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    There are a number of factors to consider here.

    The "polerouter sub" script appears from the earliest serial numbers of the second generation, first execution of the polerouter sub models. I have scoured the internet and asked the experts (as well as a former UG watchmaker) and there does not seem to be any records of polerouter dials without the "polerouter sub" script.

    The menta watch had a very early serial (2.3 mil) as well as the "TA" appended or "type automatic" confirming it was a very early execution. It also has crosshairs that follow all the way through to the "geneve" script. I could accept that the menta was the first of a batch, however I would have expected any others in the batch to have had serial numbers that were very close and a similar layout of dial. However, that is not the case.

    Your sub is quite unique in that the cross hairs that end early.

    I am leaning towards factory replacement service dials which was quite common practice in the 60s and 70s, not just for the subs but other models such as the tri compax . Another possibility is that they are part of a batch of dials that had failed quality control and somehow found their way to the open market back in the 70s.

    I still think that there is something peculiar and interesting about the menta sub as it seems to be unique (hands, dial and serial number) so could well be a very rare execution or prototype as @jordn has mentioned. One thing that does not convince me though is the lume ...
     
  17. mentawatches Jan 16, 2017

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    Guys - been following the thread, just been super busy. I'll add some of my thoughts later. In the meantime, I finally got my hand on the recent pickup. Attaching some dial shots, I'll have to take it off later and flip it over later. More to come!
     
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  18. FREDMAYCOIN Jan 16, 2017

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    Awsome, keep them coming. I look forward to additional pictures.
     
  19. Mapearso Jan 16, 2017

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    Then there's the Polerouter Sub Space Compax 1st gen with the US Navy Bezel..... ?!

    sub space.jpg
     
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  20. tomvox1 Jan 16, 2017

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    Not to be paranoid and with clear respect for all the hard work and risk you've gone to to take your watch apart but the Singer stamp on the back of the dial is not what I would expect as far as fonts and the corporate symbol -- it seems quite strange to me when I compare it with others of this (supposed) era.
    Compare yours...
    PolerouterNoSub-Singer back_copy.jpg

    ...with some other images I have collected of bona fide Singer dials for Rolex Sports models from the from the 60s/70s:
    5113Rolex70s-Singer.jpg 5512dialback.jpg
    Daytona6262-Dial-Singer-1.JPG Daytona6262-Dial-Singer-2.JPG Daytona6262-Dial-Singer-3.JPG
    (images sourced from Vintage Rolex Forum)

    Now the actual SINGER fonts not being squared off might come down to chronology, batch variations, etc and obviously a UG is not a Rolex. But I still think that squiggly corporate logo should always be fairly uniform and on the Polerouter no-Sub dial it doesn't seem to match the others. Could it be the angle of the photo playing tricks? It should always be shaped like this:

    Singer_logo.jpg
    (image derived from Rolex Passion Report)

    And from the photo provided of the non-Sub back it doesn't seem to resemble that at all, rather looking more like a random cursive L or T and not an intertwined JS. So I am not fully confident this is a genuine Singer dial based on that stamp.
    Respect to all & best regards,
    T.
     
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