Phillips Auctions Bringing About a Brave New World...again

CajunTiger · Nov 8, 2015

tomvox1
Hyperbole in the service of making a point is a well known trait of mine. 😁
Cheers,
T.

PS BTW -- and in non-hyperbolic fashion -- off the top of my head I count at least 30+ varieties>> http://www.network54.com/Forum/540369
Probably more than that though especially if you throw in "Tropical" aging of black & silver dials! 😉

😀

I would say thats accurate, thats why I said "many" dozens. Although tropical is not a variation, just a condition...or at least what most people consider tropical is really a condition. A true tropical IMO is due to a defect in the original paint that caused it to fade. But there are some truly rare Daytonas...some variations with only a few hundred examples known. But Rolex in general is made in much higher numbers than smaller watch manufactures like say Heuer. Heuer was a very small company in comparison and this is why IMO we are seeing prices adjust in the past few years...this year alone some of the less common Heuers have risen 300%...crazy times. It will be interesting to see what lot 226 goes for...now this is truly a rare piece.

Now if your original post said "Submariner" instead of "Daytona" Id have agree with you. 😀
For every one Heuer 2447N that comes to market, there are literally hundreds of 5512, 5513, 1680 variants for sale on any given day. Those 1675's that sold just blow my mind.

tomvox1 · Nov 8, 2015

CajunTiger
😀

I would say thats accurate, thats why I said "many" dozens. Although tropical is not a variation, just a condition...or at least what most people consider tropical is really a condition. A true tropical IMO is due to a defect in the original paint that caused it to fade. But there are some truly rare Daytonas...some variations with only a few hundred examples known. But Rolex in general is made in much higher numbers than smaller watch manufactures like say Heuer. Heuer was a very small company in comparison and this is why IMO we are seeing prices adjust in the past few years...this year alone some of the less common Heuers have risen 300%...crazy times. It will be interesting to see what lot 226 goes for...now this is truly a rare piece.

Now if your original post said "Submariner" instead of "Daytona" Id have agree with you. 😀
For every one Heuer 2447N that comes to market, there are literally hundreds of 5512, 5513, 1680 variants for sale on any given day. Those 1675's that sold just blow my mind.

Well, I'd say regarding Tropical dials that anything that commands a premium over the "standard" price counts as a variation. One could say that is specific to vintage Rolex but then again look at the prices for brown dialed Speedys. I'd be surprised if Heuer didn't begin to reflect that sometime soon on their (quite scarce) "tropical" pieces. Same goes for double name dials -- no big deal at present for Omega and Heuer but someday they probably will command a premium.

Yes, Heuers were produced in quite fewer numbers than Rolex generally speaking (tho there are about a kabillion Autavia Viceroys 😁). But, as you mention, everything collectible for Heuer is basically a chronograph as opposed to Rolex so maybe total number of Daytonas versus total Heuer chronos is not so drastic a ratio, albeit it is obviously in the varieties of Heuer chronos that the spice lies --as well as the tangible Formula 1/racing connection! That said, you can then diminish the production numbers yet again when compared to tiny Universal. And while rarity does not always equal value, it certainly seems to help once people get hip to certain brands and begin driving that point home.

As for the skyrocketing prices, I'd say we were in a classic bubble except for the new factors of social media (namely Instagram in the case of watches) and the professional "enthusiast" sites that actually create an aura of desirability around certain favored models and then directly point to places where one can buy them at maximal dealer/auction-type prices.

So as long as prosperous people want to show off their fancy toys on IG etc and among their friends we may not be at the end of this wild ride quite yet after all (though I would not want to be the guy who just plunked down all that bread for the Angelus 😉).
All the best,
Tom

CajunTiger · Nov 8, 2015

tomvox1
Well, I'd say regarding Tropical dials that anything that commands a premium over the "standard" price counts as a variation.

A true tropical yes, but what most people are calling tropical today (and asking a premium for) absolutely not. Why would you consider a sun or water damaged dial a variant? Then is unpolished a variant? The vast majority of "tropical" watches are just damaged.

tomvox1 · Nov 8, 2015

CajunTiger
A true tropical yes, but what most people are calling tropical today (and asking a premium for) absolutely not. Why would you consider a sun or water damaged dial a variant? Then is unpolished a variant? The vast majority of "tropical" watches are just damaged.

Good question! I guess you can limit your variations to factory printing on dials if you like. That won't stop the premium part of the equation though. And a dial is not a case, IMO, but maybe you'd prefer to call Tropical a "factor" like unpolished in the collectible equation instead?
Either way, getting a bit nitpicky for me in the bigger picture at this point, mate .😉
Best,
T.

LouS · Nov 8, 2015

And it continues...

TriCompax ref 881101/03 CHF31250

Nina Rindt Compax CHF27500

Polerouter Sub CHF 8750

Valjoux 72 Aero-Compax ref 22703/3 CHF 23750

LouS · Nov 8, 2015

and some older references

'Hermes' branded cal 285, CHF 38,750

'Astrua' branded Contax ref 5126 CHF 8,125

Uni-Compax ref 22409 CHF 23,750. This one sold on Ebay in October 2014 for US 7,600, deemed a pretty stiff price at the time. It has since met a box. And lost the strap it was sold on, to acquire this one. Which M. Bacs presented as original in the auction.

Mlafra · Nov 8, 2015

The Contax to me is the only one that makes a little bt of sense: it is super rare, and probaly almost unique with the Atrua branded dial....

x3no · Nov 8, 2015

That Uni-Compax price... 😲😲

bazamu · Nov 8, 2015

LouS
And it continues...

TriCompax ref 881101/03 CHF31250

Nina Rindt Compax CHF27500

Polerouter Sub CHF 8750

Valjoux 72 Aero-Compax ref 22703/3 CHF 23750

I can understand the Compax/Tri-Compax prices, but that Polerouter Sub for 8750 is offensive. Nearly 2x what the market commands and it doesn't even have a genuine seconds hand.

PHPHD · Nov 8, 2015

This really is ushering in a new age,.. First it was Hodinkee, now M.Bacs...

CajunTiger · Nov 8, 2015

Glad I kept my gilt dial 1675...looks like the new normal is $30k

flyingout · Nov 8, 2015

BTW, the Phillips iOS app is nicely done. You can watch as the bids come in.

MMMD · Nov 8, 2015

Gavin
Nina Rindt did not even wear the so called Evil Nina. Just because some enthusiast started calling it that. Every dog has its day. Just me sour grapes. 😁

Enough sour grapes, Gavin. Next you're going to be questioning my Evil Clapton.

MMMD · Nov 8, 2015

LouS
Some results from today's session - not clear if the reported price includes commission or no. More to come tomorrow. Discuss....

Angelus ChronoDato estimated 5-7000 CHF, sold for CHF 21,250

Now he's coming for Angelus? Sweet, innocent Angelus? Say it ain't so.

LouS · Nov 8, 2015

MMMD
Now he's coming for Angelus? Sweet, innocent Angelus? Say it ain't so.

Yep, and there were pieced from Record and Niga in there too. For a moment I thought I was at some regional Italian auction. Then I saw the prices.

LarryG · Nov 8, 2015

The Record and Niga chronographs sold a month or so earlier at an Auctionata offering. I cant bear to see the differences between the 2 auction results. I had thought about buying the split second record the 1st time.... Ok someone tell me....

Provenance now simply a funtion of Auctioneer?

LouS · Nov 8, 2015

LarryG
Provenance now simply a funtion of Auctioneer?

This auctioneer, certainly. His imprimatur has become a substitute for doing your own research for some deep-pocketed collectors. It's his business model - the product he sells is expertise, and he's capitalizing on the fact that auction houses (some certifiably more than others) have been lax in vetting their pieces and sometimes worse. People are willing to pay good money for that evidently and the high prices he generates makes sellers line up to consign with him. Can't blame him for seeing the niche and exploiting it. Another interesting thing he's doing is reaching out into secondary brands, long shunned by the big auction houses because the percentage wasn't worth the effort. Well, it turns out to be if you can raise the prices....

MMMD · Nov 8, 2015

LarryG
The Record and Niga chronographs sold a month or so earlier at an Auctionata offering. I cant bear to see the differences between the 2 auction results. I had thought about buying the split second record the 1st time.... Ok someone tell me....

Provenance now simply a funtion of Auctioneer?

I like that Record. CHF 15000.

PHPHD · Nov 8, 2015

LouS
This auctioneer, certainly. His imprimatur has become a substitute for doing your own research for some deep-pocketed collectors. It's his business model - the product he sells is expertise, and he's capitalizing on the fact that auction houses (some certifiably more than others) have been lax in vetting their pieces and sometimes worse. People are willing to pay good money for that evidently and the high prices he generates makes sellers line up to consign with him. Can't blame him for seeing the niche and exploiting it. Another interesting thing he's doing is reaching out into secondary brands, long shunned by the big auction houses because the percentage wasn't worth the effort. Well, it turns out to be if you can raise the prices....

Makes so much sense.

LarryG · Nov 8, 2015

Ok, I was wrong, different split seconds.
First one from auctionata
Second from Mr. A. B

Still should have bought the 1st one tho.....