Phillips Auctions Bringing About a Brave New World...again

Hijak · Oct 23, 2015

spoynya

tomvox1 · Oct 24, 2015

LouS
It was in-house-ish. Martel pretty much exclusively supplied movements to UG - the exact nature of the relationship is not clear, but it was a very close one, to the extent that the Martel factory had "Universal" written on the building.

Great stuff, Lou, thanks a lot! 👍
Sounds a bit like Venus' relationship with Breitling. After the mid-1950s and the birth of the Navitimer you almost never find a Venus chrono movement in any watch but a Breitling. It's like they became their defacto exclusive supplier for chrono movements.
Just out of curiosity: what movements did Martel/UG supply to Jaeger (and/or JLC)? Strictly chrono movements I would imagine, as I always thought JLC was pretty much 100% in-house otherwise (and in fact supplied ebauches to Vacheron among other top brands).
Thanks again & all the best,
Tom

tomvox1 · Oct 24, 2015

ChicagoFrog
For every 100 Daytonas out there, there's probably 2 Tri-Compaxes and 1 Compax.

I saw somebody loosely trying to connect a panda Tri-Compax to Eric Clapton because he wore one on stage during a concert many years ago. That's the closest I've seen though. But hey, not every watch needs a definite tie to something from it's historical period.

Cheers,
Rob

Well I don't know about those Rolex Daytona vs. "Speedy" UG Tri-Compax ratios that you speculate on. Who could really? As I said earlier, I will grant you that the UGs are much more uncommon, no doubt. The very difference in production capacity between the two marques would seem to confirm that no matter how "unpopular" Rolex's chronos were back in the day there were still proportionally more than UG could ever have produced.
But of course the "common" Rolex Cosmograph Daytonas have about a million tiny variations from their beginnings in the early 1960s to their termination in the early 80s, to say nothing of the changes in the movement, cases & pushers, PN dials, gold models, etc. Each vintage brand has its own criteria for collectibility and minutiae is definitely one of Rolex's.
Yes, I was trying to think of the Clapton photo(s)! Good catch. 👍 No doubt you will start to see the linkage pop up on Hodinkee, Analog/Shift, etc.

It is a time tested technique for hawking vintage watches ever since the Italians found pictures of Paul Newman wearing his eponymous Rolex Chronograph in the early 1980s. 😉
One last thought on Valjoux 72 vs UG 281 Tri-Compax: Yes the Val 72 is omnipresent and could also be ordered in several different levels of finishing (Rolex & Heuer usually the best, much less fancy for Gallet, Clebar, Enicar, military use, etc). But that means that parts are also plentiful for repair even if you need to cannibalize a cheaper watch for it (with the notable exception of Rolex's bespoke balances, which changed through the years.) With the 281 Tri-Compax you better have a good watchmaker to maintain it because they don't call it a "grand complication" for nothing and it is very easy to F up the movement by doing something dumb like using the calendar adjustors close to midnight. And as I understand it parts are not easy to come by if repairs are needed.
Not something enthusiastic new collectors take into consideration too often but future serviceability is also an issue to keep in mind for any vintage watch, especially an expensive one.
All the best,
Tom

Gavin · Oct 24, 2015

tomvox1
It is a time tested technique for hawking vintage watches ever since the Italians found pictures of Paul Newman wearing his eponymous Rolex Chronograph in the early 1980s. 😉

Nina Rindt did not even wear the so called Evil Nina. Just because some enthusiast started calling it that. Every dog has its day. Just me sour grapes. 😁

LouS · Oct 24, 2015

tomvox1
Just out of curiosity: what movements did Martel/UG supply to Jaeger (and/or JLC)? Strictly chrono movements I would imagine, as I always thought JLC was pretty much 100% in-house otherwise (and in fact supplied ebauches to Vacheron among other top brands).
Thanks again & all the best,
Tom

Yes, correct, just chrono movements. Martel didn't make anything else to my knowledge, apart from the full calendar cal 291, until it was an independent company. At that point it began to make the manual and rotor automatic time only and time-date movements that were the ancestors of Zenith's 25X2 series of movements. Essentially, when Zenith bought Martel, it threw out its own catalog of wristwatch engines in favor of Martel's, including the legendary Jobin movements.

tomvox1 · Oct 25, 2015

LouS
Yes, correct, just chrono movements. Martel didn't make anything else to my knowledge, apart from the full calendar cal 291, until it was an independent company. At that point it began to make the manual and rotor automatic time only and time-date movements that were the ancestors of Zenith's 25X2 series of movements. Essentially, when Zenith bought Martel, it threw out its own catalog of wristwatch engines in favor of Martel's, including the legendary Jobin movements.

Awesome, Lou, thanks so much for that! This is the best part of the hobby for me -- learning something new every day from other great enthusiasts. 👍
All the best & thanks again,
Tom

HeuerLoon · Oct 26, 2015

Universal briefly used the Venus 178 (UG 90) in the late Aero Compax.

woodwkr2 · Oct 30, 2015

HeuerLoon
Universal briefly used the Venus 178 (UG 90) in the late Aero Compax.

Yes, the beginning of the end of Universal was actually its loss of the patent infringement case for the microrotor movement brought by Hamilton and Van Buren (?--going off the top of my head here). Zenith offered them a way to stay afloat by offloading Martel, but in the process UG lost their 'own' chrono movements.

It was a strange time though... as 2 years later they were embracing Bulova and their Accutron tuning fork movements, which eventually led to their take out.

LouS · Oct 31, 2015

woodwkr2
Yes, the beginning of the end of Universal was actually its loss of the patent infringement case for the microrotor movement brought by Hamilton and Van Buren (?--going off the top of my head here).

Buren:

Van Buren:

LarryG · Oct 31, 2015

Van Buren boys

reficul_x · Nov 1, 2015

The few Pateks are really very interesting.... wow

LouS · Nov 7, 2015

Some results from today's session - not clear if the reported price includes commission or no. More to come tomorrow. Discuss....

Angelus ChronoDato estimated 5-7000 CHF, sold for CHF 21,250

Ug TriCompax Ref 22541, estimated 15-25000CHF. sold for CHF25,000

Mlafra · Nov 7, 2015

Regardless if these prices include commissions or not they are still crazy IMHO...
Cannot really comment on that Angelus because I am no expert but I have never seen a Tri Compax (especially from the 40's or 50's) going for these kind of money

PHPHD · Nov 7, 2015

Wow, 25k is a pretty price for that piece...

tomvox1 · Nov 7, 2015

Well as the old saying goes: It is one thing to buy, it is another to recoup.
Or something like that... 😉
Best,
T.

CajunTiger · Nov 7, 2015

Gavin
Nina Rindt did not even wear the so called Evil Nina. Just because some enthusiast started calling it that. Every dog has its day. Just me sour grapes. 😁

well the reason its called "evil" is because its the opposite of the "good" model (Panda version) she wore. It wasn't meant to imply she wore it.

CajunTiger · Nov 8, 2015

So why are people paying twice market value for these watches. Lot 103 and 144 are average looking GMT's that sold for 200% to 300% more than market values...I just don't get it. There is nothing special about these watches.

CajunTiger · Nov 8, 2015

tomvox1
But of course the "common" Rolex Cosmograph Daytonas have about a million tiny variations from their beginnings in the early 1960s to their termination in the early 80s, to say nothing of the changes in the movement, cases & pushers, PN dials, gold models, etc.

The Daytona is the least common of the vintage Rolex...some of the variations are actually rare. They didn't sell well in the 60's and 70's...and some sat in the dealers cases for 2 years before finally selling, so they were made in far smaller numbers than the Submariners, GMT's, and other models. Yes some are common, but not all of them. And yes there are many variations, many dozens maybe...but obviously not millions or even thousands...or hundreds for that matter.

marturx · Nov 8, 2015

LouS
Some results from today's session - not clear if the reported price includes commission or no. More to come tomorrow. Discuss....

Angelus ChronoDato estimated 5-7000 CHF, sold for CHF 21,250

.

I saw one of these, OK, less good condition, but the same kind of zone dial and s/s, sell on auction in March in Sweden for USD 700 + 20% buyers premium.

Guess I should have bought it. But as I regard them as quite fragile, I restrained myself 😀

tomvox1 · Nov 8, 2015

CajunTiger
The Daytona is the least common of the vintage Rolex...some of the variations are actually rare. They didn't sell well in the 60's and 70's...and some sat in the dealers cases for 2 years before finally selling, so they were made in far smaller numbers than the Submariners, GMT's, and other models. Yes some are common, but not all of them. And yes there are many variations, many dozens maybe...but obviously not millions or even thousands...or hundreds for that matter.

Hyperbole in the service of making a point is a well known trait of mine. 😁
Cheers,
T.

PS BTW -- and in non-hyperbolic fashion -- off the top of my head I count at least 30+ varieties>> http://www.network54.com/Forum/540369
Probably more than that though especially if you throw in "Tropical" aging of black & silver dials! 😉