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Phillips auction Speedmaster - a 3.000.000-fake?
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jaegodylan
·Cheaters gonna cheat.. I bet they were all a bit surprised at how well the con went for a while.
I do value an extract as it just gives a bit of context to the object. I’ve bought maybe 20.. and had a few cancelled.
I do value an extract as it just gives a bit of context to the object. I’ve bought maybe 20.. and had a few cancelled.
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Aludic
··@SpeedyBirthYearI do value an extract as it just gives a bit of context to the object. I’ve bought maybe 20.. and had a few cancelled.
Same here, other than that it gives me sufficient confidence that I've actually found a watch made in my year of birth, an EoA personally doesn't bring me value. But knowing that production date alone was worth it for me and makes me regret that the option is - at least temporarily - gone.
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dsio
··Ash @ ΩFextract = toilette paper
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TexOmega
·Simply got too greedy or needed some BIG CASH quickly.
If they'd just kept chugging along at the $60-70K USD (and the occasional $150,000) no eyes would have squinted too much. It's that last one big score, before you bug-out, where you find your boat dashed against the rocks.
All, allegedly, of course or my uninformed opinion.....let's see if any of this actually gets to a judge and jury.
If they'd just kept chugging along at the $60-70K USD (and the occasional $150,000) no eyes would have squinted too much. It's that last one big score, before you bug-out, where you find your boat dashed against the rocks.
All, allegedly, of course or my uninformed opinion.....let's see if any of this actually gets to a judge and jury.
Edited:
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JimInOz
··Melbourne AustraliaIt’s handy purely as a general interest thing to confirm some elements and I like the fact that the delivery location helps you learn some more about a watch’s history but it’s been known that they’re not a source of validation for a long time. Many years ago they didn’t require photos or details of watches to even issue them and a bunch of early extracts for Speedmasters were issued on the honor system based on how the owner described them.
👍
Exactly.
When I requested mine in 2013 I only had to provide a movement number, no other info was requested.
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pdxleaf
·Who has the last extract?
March 16th, 2023 to beat.
March 16th, 2023 to beat.
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watchyouwant
·Finally, it's outed. I never trusted that Phillips Speedy. There was clearly something else going on in that Auction. And I still think that Bezel is not genuine. A few observations: Some of us more aged Omega Collectors remember well , what happened in the past. The Factory Vintage Restoration Watchmakers removed valuable parts like dials, hands, small diameter pushers and old crowns in that process. But these were not discarded into a waste basket under the Watchmaker bench. Next lower level Admins had access. Maybe some here remember that in the early to mid 2010's some rare and used Speedmaster parts turned up on eBay. 2 sellers from Switzerland. Later expanded to an additional seller from Germany. Things rarely seen before and after. There was always Whisper, that the parts were from a restoration Unit.... Stopped suddenly. Then a raft of fresh faces joined the Museum / restoration crew. When Money takes over, there will always be ways for them in the Know and at the source to exploit that. Same happened at Rolex. There were quite a few heated discussions at the VRF about Big Crown Subs parts Access and later a few dealers quit the Forum. So, nothing new .
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kaplan
·I have you guys beat the Omega way
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jaegodylan
·Blame it all on @kaplan
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Sharp
·Auction house description completely wrong, but uniformed fool still pays way over estimate is a story you could probably attach to something in every single one of these Geneva sales. It would not even be news if it was 70-100k rather than 3m as TexOmega mentioned above.
The Beyer dial Daytona Perezcope also reported on proves Phillips don't do any research, why would they? Until it explodes like this there has never been any financial incentive to do so, why prove their stock is riddled with dealer fed and cobbled together rubbish if it just costs them money and consigners. It is not like they are selling to well informed collectors who know market values or details - the results are almost always disturbingly high even for the modern Rolex examples.
If what Jose wrote below is true, and what is not really getting any attention, IMO is the most fascinating thing about this fiasco - Omega themselves bid 600k?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
So despite the obviously replaced sub dial hands, incorrect case back engraving for the serial range, buffed up case and probably relumed hands (the dark spots commonly appear from the edges adjoining the metal not randomly scattered), service crystal, bezel from another watch sold relatively recently (ok this was not easy to spot, well done Jose) Omega still pursued this watch?
The coupling yolk on the movement is probably the incorrect later type (asymmetrical) if what is being said about the serial number is true (see update below from Perezcope today). This would be a very obvious sign of a later movement. Hopefully I am wrong about that, how could Omega miss that?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
Omega should be embarrassed. Why would they want such a shitty watch in their museum? How can they have such a bad eye? How can they not spot such obvious problems but bid 600k?
It's just icing on the cake that their own employees helped fudge the serial number using one from the archives to provide an extract. The rest of the watch is still no good.
This all hinges on Jose being correct regarding Omega bidding, but I wouldn't trust the quality of their museum collection if this is the sort of watch they are pursuing and they should probably do some sort of serious internal audit/review regarding what they have bought / and who is assessing what is bid on in the future.
P.S. Please do not sue me this is just my opinion. Thank you.
The Beyer dial Daytona Perezcope also reported on proves Phillips don't do any research, why would they? Until it explodes like this there has never been any financial incentive to do so, why prove their stock is riddled with dealer fed and cobbled together rubbish if it just costs them money and consigners. It is not like they are selling to well informed collectors who know market values or details - the results are almost always disturbingly high even for the modern Rolex examples.
If what Jose wrote below is true, and what is not really getting any attention, IMO is the most fascinating thing about this fiasco - Omega themselves bid 600k?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
So despite the obviously replaced sub dial hands, incorrect case back engraving for the serial range, buffed up case and probably relumed hands (the dark spots commonly appear from the edges adjoining the metal not randomly scattered), service crystal, bezel from another watch sold relatively recently (ok this was not easy to spot, well done Jose) Omega still pursued this watch?
The coupling yolk on the movement is probably the incorrect later type (asymmetrical) if what is being said about the serial number is true (see update below from Perezcope today). This would be a very obvious sign of a later movement. Hopefully I am wrong about that, how could Omega miss that?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
Omega should be embarrassed. Why would they want such a shitty watch in their museum? How can they have such a bad eye? How can they not spot such obvious problems but bid 600k?
It's just icing on the cake that their own employees helped fudge the serial number using one from the archives to provide an extract. The rest of the watch is still no good.
This all hinges on Jose being correct regarding Omega bidding, but I wouldn't trust the quality of their museum collection if this is the sort of watch they are pursuing and they should probably do some sort of serious internal audit/review regarding what they have bought / and who is assessing what is bid on in the future.
P.S. Please do not sue me this is just my opinion. Thank you.
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DrmexicoII
·Auction house description completely wrong, but uniformed fool still pays way over estimate is a story you could probably attach to something in every single one of these Geneva sales. It would not even be news if it was 70-100k rather than 3m as TexOmega mentioned above.
The Beyer dial Daytona Perezcope also reported on proves Phillips don't do any research, why would they? Until it explodes like this there has never been any financial incentive to do so, why prove their stock is riddled with dealer fed and cobbled together rubbish if it just costs them money and consigners. It is not like they are selling to well informed collectors who know market values or details - the results are almost always disturbingly high even for the modern Rolex examples.
If what Jose wrote below is true, and what is not really getting any attention, IMO is the most fascinating thing about this fiasco - Omega themselves bid 600k?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
So despite the obviously replaced sub dial hands, incorrect case back engraving for the serial range, buffed up case and probably relumed hands (the dark spots commonly appear from the edges adjoining the metal not randomly scattered), service crystal, bezel from another watch sold relatively recently (ok this was not easy to spot, well done Jose) Omega still pursued this watch?
The coupling yolk on the movement is probably the incorrect later type (asymmetrical) if what is being said about the serial number is true (see update below from Perezcope today). This would be a very obvious sign of a later movement. Hopefully I am wrong about that, how could Omega miss that?
(see https://perezcope.com/)
Omega should be embarrassed. Why would they want such a shitty watch in their museum? How can they have such a bad eye? How can they not spot such obvious problems but bid 600k?
It's just icing on the cake that their own employees helped fudge the serial number using one from the archives to provide an extract. The rest of the watch is still no good.
This all hinges on Jose being correct regarding Omega bidding, but I wouldn't trust the quality of their museum collection if this is the sort of watch they are pursuing and they should probably do some sort of serious internal audit/review regarding what they have bought / and who is assessing what is bid on in the future.
P.S. Please do not sue me this is just my opinion. Thank you.
Maybe they already knew and best way of burying it / sorting it out was to buy it back...?
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roh123
·It is not like they are selling to well informed collectors who know market values or details
Just saying.. That said paying this crazy number for this particular watch was probably not done by someone in the know. That doesn’t mean others with knowledge wouldn’t have been interested buying this at a record price. It was a very pretty watch and other than the fake bridge it was nicely put-together. Like many top examples in todays world unfortunately is.
Watch collecting these days go way beyond forums. It is not 2010 anymore. 😀
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Sharp
·Maybe they already knew and best way of burying it / sorting it out was to buy it back...?
I was writing under the impression, they had found out after the auction or would not have bid, or would have requested it be withdrawn. I might be totally wrong - yes that is an interesting idea.
Just to re-affirm, all of my thoughts on this are based on it being a fact that Omega was bidding as Jose stated, which would just seem really odd if they knew about it beforehand.
Regarding
Many big ticket items are bought by people with huge knowledge. Just because they have deep pockets doesn’t mean they are stupid or not interested.
Just saying.. That said paying this crazy number for this particular watch was probably not done by someone in the know. That doesn’t mean others with knowledge wouldn’t have been interested buying this at a record price. It was a very pretty watch and other than the fake bridge it was nicely put-together. Like many top examples in todays world unfortunately is.
Watch collecting these days go way beyond forums. It is not 2010 anymore. 😀
Of course informed collectors with deep pockets will buy all sorts of wonderful things for exceptional amounts, Phillips just seem to get a lot of very strange results for the not so exceptional, as in this case. And there is so much talk of these buyers being groomed or investors, it is hard to not be cynical regarding who is really shopping at these sales when the results exceed all expectations relative to other contexts, auctions, or dealers.
It is unfortunate they did not catalogue the watch as a 'pretty put together with a fake bridge' and then it wouldn't be turning into a soap opera. 😀
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roh123
·Omega most likely wanted it for their museum initially. A normal day 600k chf would have won the auction for them.
What happened after the auction was gossip about the piece being bad which eventually led to the buyer never paying for it. That’s probably when Omega started their own investigation since the great news of a crazy record suddenly was all about a franken watch they had made an extract for.
What happened after the auction was gossip about the piece being bad which eventually led to the buyer never paying for it. That’s probably when Omega started their own investigation since the great news of a crazy record suddenly was all about a franken watch they had made an extract for.
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bassem abadan
·
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SpeedyPhill
·Well, 2023 became a 175th anniversary year for Omega to be remembered after all !
😲
😲
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jaegodylan
·25.05.20023
already beat you with one from today!
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