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Phillips auction Speedmaster - a 3.000.000-fake?

Mouse_at_Large
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TimeODanaos TimeODanaos
I imagine the corporate air is thick with non-disclosure agreements right now. I would be interested to know from Swiss lawyers (we must have some here) what those count for these days, e.g. whether they can thwart a prosecution or whatever. I don't believe in victimless crimes, so someone must be smarting...

Now "Succession" has finished, there has to be a pitch in here somewhere!

My understanding of legal theory is that NDA's and the like are civil/private law agreements between individuals (inc corporate bodies). As such, they do not trump the criminal law which is generally the state/authorities recourse against individuals/corporate bodies etc. There may be some regard taken of the difficult position it puts individuals in when giving evidence in criminal matters, but it does not generally override the criminal authority's right to force such testimony. To have it otherwise would allow people to avoid providing evidence in criminal matters by signing mutual NDAs prior to planning or participating in such criminal activities.
 
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
https://www.scottishwatches.co.uk/2...d-the-fake-record-breaking-omega-speedmaster/

Interview with Perezcope (more credible blog than the Bogart clown) 🍿

Edit: definitely worth a listen for the speculators ... all names mentioned too 😉
Interesting to hear Jose tell how this enfolded according to the HoM. Which person issued the serial and then helped complete the watch. Which kind of makes sense for those that knowing the HoM.

That opens up the possibility that the HoM was just neglicent. Still questions regarding the bidding but as he stopped bidding at 600k in the room someone else made the winning bid online. But he could indeed be innocent in this mess.
 
TimeODanaos
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Mouse_at_Large Mouse_at_Large
My understanding of legal theory is that NDA's and the like are civil/private law agreements between individuals (inc corporate bodies). As such, they do not trump the criminal law which is generally the state/authorities recourse against individuals/corporate bodies etc. There may be some regard taken of the difficult position it puts individuals in when giving evidence in criminal matters, but it does not generally override the criminal authority's right to force such testimony. To have it otherwise would allow people to avoid providing evidence in criminal matters by signing mutual NDAs prior to planning or participating in such criminal activities.
Thanks, this is my understanding too coming from the Anglo tradition of jurisprudence. Just wondered whether any Swiss cantonal or federal approaches to corporate doings might slightly differ. (No stereotypes intended, just interested.)
 
pdxleaf
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P PerJ
Interesting to hear Jose tell how this enfolded according to the HoM. Which person issued the serial and then helped complete the watch. Which kind of makes sense for those that knowing the HoM.

That opens up the possibility that the HoM was just neglicent. Still questions regarding the bidding but as he stopped bidding at 600k in the room someone else made the winning bid online. But he could indeed be innocent in this mess.

<s> Innocent before proven guilty?! No way that'll ever work. </s>
Edited:
 
P
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pdxleaf pdxleaf
Innocent before proven guilty?! No way that'll ever work.
Well.. Someone did something. The watch didn’t come together by itself with a fake bridge, pretend serial and provenance to later fetch a crazy, unwarranted price. Since Omega points out HoM it is interesting to see who he points at. Don’t you agree?

Personally I don’t care who did what. I do however care a lot about what happened. It is very destructive for our hobby. No matter who cheated who out of a lot of money.
 
Tom Dick
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Just listened to the pod cast, sounds very credible! Interesting that all have now been named and the comments about the mainstream watch media!
Edited:
 
eugeneandresson
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P PerJ
Interesting to hear Jose tell how this enfolded according to the HoM. Which person issued the serial and then helped complete the watch. Which kind of makes sense for those that knowing the HoM.

Sir, you clearly didn’t listen to what was said…
 
eugeneandresson
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collector1946 collector1946
??

Not you good Sir! The guy who didn’t want to give your Bogart watch back to you! Jose unfortunately went on his blog with this story, which was a big loss of brownie points imho…but i think hes evened the score. Thank you kindly for exposing him in the way you did…thats what I call community service 👍 I don’t want to pollute this thread with his name etc …
 
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Sir, you clearly didn’t listen to what was said…
He clearly points the finger on AM to be the one helping the sellers get the serial.
 
collector1946
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
Not you good Sir! The guy who didn’t want to give your Bogart watch back to you! Jose unfortunately went on his blog with this story, which was a big loss of brownie points imho…but i think hes evened the score. Thank you kindly for exposing him in the way you did…thats what I call community service 👍 I don’t want to pollute this thread with his name etc …
Pheeew 👍 will have to catch up with Jose 😉... I thank you all on the OF it was an awful time for all involved.
 
m84
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redpcar redpcar
My script: Omega sr. management finds out the truth of the watch just before the auction. Omega gives the go ahead to purchase at any cost. Omega squashes any more publicity by executing NDAs and firing all employees involved. Let's call it a short story.

This has 'blockbuster' written all over, sure, 😜 but if they found out the truth before the auction and tried to 'squash' any more publicity, then why issue an international press release for everyone (literally anyone on their mailing list) to know that a record breaking speedmaster had been sold?

Anyway, one thing is certain: I just tried accessing their release on their website 'stories' section, and evidently it's not there anymore... This despite the fact that google cache still features it in the top 10 results...

Screenshot-2023-06-13-at-09-46-27.png

the links would've been:
https://www.omegawatches.com/en-gb/stories/speedmaster-sells-for-world-record-price
https://www.omegawatches.com/en-se/stories/speedmaster-sells-for-world-record-price
etc... but redirects to the homepage.
 
w154
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m84 m84
This has 'blockbuster' written all over, sure, 😜 but if they found out the truth before the auction and tried to 'squash' any more publicity, then why issue an international press release for everyone (literally anyone on their mailing list) to know that a record breaking speedmaster had been sold?

Anyway, one thing is certain: I just tried accessing their release on their website 'stories' section, and evidently it's not there anymore... This despite the fact that google cache still features it in the top 10 results...

Screenshot-2023-06-13-at-09-46-27.png

the links would've been:
https://www.omegawatches.com/en-gb/stories/speedmaster-sells-for-world-record-price
https://www.omegawatches.com/en-se/stories/speedmaster-sells-for-world-record-price
etc... but redirects to the homepage.

The link is archived here:

https://web.archive.org/web/2022020...ries/speedmaster-sells-for-world-record-price
 
wouter van wijk
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
https://www.scottishwatches.co.uk/2...d-the-fake-record-breaking-omega-speedmaster/

Interview with Perezcope (more credible blog than the Bogart clown) 🍿

Edit: definitely worth a listen for the speculators ... all names mentioned too 😉

...if you listen to this pod it raised the question to me why of why Omega did choose to disclose only one title.

So in this pod Jose sheds light on the other two omega employees which as he says had a way bigger influence in the whole scam. Jose knew this way earlier about who was involved.
Little detail I don't know the particular reason why Jose now decided to call out on the other two Omega employees and why he doesn't want to name the dealer name who is involved. This name is already known in the dealer community. So most likely due to fear of legal implications and because the other two Omega employees were already mentioned in the public domain. Btw in this pod Jose is too hilarious about legal implications that he is not allowed to say any bad things about a certain auction house with a name we can not talk about but everybody knows who and then he calls the name; what a legend!!!)

Side note, I know other big Omega collectors who know the HoM were also quite upset and just couldn't belief it.

The whole way how Omega handles this PR catastrophe is quite debatable and unclear and is covered in mystery. Therefore people are soo much into it. It is already starting why Omega prefers to use proxy bidders and in contrast during May 2023 auctions Rolex had a employee in the middle of the auction room bidding for the Crown on 6 lots for top dollar..

This would be a real nice case for a PR trouble shooter. So yes this is a sign of not very good corporate governance. Imho they did not take care of the collector community in the long term and on a sustainable way. How is it possible that a board member or c-level manager and his son get involved in such a scam; that is a sign of an inadequate corporate culture. Rumor says that Omega watchmakers had to cooperate in making of the parts with a lot of reluctance and pressure. That's really not in my own backyard. The way how they handle this issue by scapegoating the HoM is to say the least very ad hoc responsive and not very well thought. And as a result people start digging deeper and deeper
 
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Reason why Omega makes a public case is probably because they want to make an example out of employees that basically steal money from the company. Fully understandable unless they actually had something to do with the shill bidding. If they just buried it and dealt with it internally they would look guilty as a brand. Which would be even worse.

My guess why they only point out the HoM is because he collaborated with them when they approached him on the topic. If he is innocent, which I hope, he gets punished for trying to do the right thing when confronted. If the other two denied everything it could be a problem for Omega later on if this get dismissed and they accused them like they did with the HoM.
Edited:
 
Tom Dick
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The can of worms is now open, and unfortunately the story will only develop and reveal more unpleasant going’s on. It’s ultimately a massive shame for the Museum and the heritage department as there are really good people in there who potentially have, by proxy, been tainted by the situation (reference to in house watch makers as per above for example)

I have no doubt the truth will come out in the due course of the investigation, how much of that becomes public is anyone’s guess, but then Omega have chosen to comment openly, so not much ‘going back now’. Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I’m sure there will be long-term reflections for many years to come internally at Omega about how it was handled.

I do think that there will be more to come, I specifically refer to some of the recent glut of Alaska Watches and rare prototypes. Provenance on a number of them was simply too good to be true, but many of the watches had questionable characteristics, especially things like condition of case versus condition of dial , I’m just a general feeling about a couple of them of them being ‘off’. Remember that whilst not fetching the chf 3m price tag most of them were well north of £100K a pop

As others have said, it’s really sad to see people who clearly had firstly amazing jobs and secondly unbelievable access and influence using it to be complicit in fraud.

like many of you, I know a number of those implicated and the one name that doesn’t chime for me is the HoM, time will tell but l really hope that the real truth comes out about this whole sorry episode
Edited:
 
P
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
IIRC he names the other two employees as they were already named in local French speaking newspapers prior to his interview…i am not certain if the dealers were. He even quoted the names of the newspapers. My new favorite buzzword is ‘kingpin’ 😗
The employees names are public from the law suit. The two dealers are yet to be sued (Omega mentioned that they could add external parts to the law suit) but have been pointed out by Hodinkee as ”a Fribourg dealer” and ”a parts dealer”. No one has named them yet even though I am sure many can work that out by themselves.
 
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