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Phillips auction in Geneva.......

tyrantlizardrex
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
So, whilst I’m agreeing (even though I’m only familiar at laundering dirty clothing), I’m wondering : who has more money laundering skillz...you or TheLizard 😗

😁

I have no money laundering or tax evasion skills - I don't have enough money to hand wash, and pay my taxes to the relevant authorities.

Your question should probably be:

Of the two of us, which of us has had watch collectors/dealers admit to doing this themselves, or doing it for clients?

Because that would be me. On multiple occasions, by quite a few different people.

And they've then told me stories of people in their circles, who do it on an even larger scale, for even more expensive items.

Despite the fact that 99% of us collect watches for fun, there's that 1% who have an additional motive... and just because we don't do these things, it doesn't mean that others arent.

Now I'm off to buy some more junk from the bottom of eBay. 😁
 
abrod520
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Also - some watches sell for normal prices at Phillips because they do still take watches from ordinary collectors as well. Money laundering aside, I've long said that Phillips watch auctions operate much like art auctions do now - essentially as a mechanism for the "in-crowd" to pump up the values of their pieces. Same happens with a couple of watch dealers as well, who are known for insanely high prices yet still sell... somehow...
 
G
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ndgal ndgal
If one wanted to launder money, buying watches in a public auction from an auction house will not be the place to do so...😵‍💫
Because then you’ve established provenance. Public is good. Paperwork to show it’s been bought from a prestigious auction house, not a backstreet dealer. And perhaps an auction house who will accept payment in one country and delivery in another.

And with the provenance it must be clean right
 
G
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And by the way watches are easily traded and easily transportable. Both positive attributes. Can easily carry a patek costing 3mm over borders. Step right on to a plane with it. You try doing the same with a suitcase of cash or gold for example
 
jhross98
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G Gamma
And by the way watches are easily traded and easily transportable. Both positive attributes. Can easily carry a patek costing 3mm over borders. Step right on to a plane with it. You try doing the same with a suitcase of cash or gold for example

i personally think diamonds would be FAR superior to laundering money / being tranpsortable than giving all of your name and contact and bank information to an auction house. . those records are easily available to the authorities

its a nice theory but i don't buy it
 
ndgal
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G Gamma
Because then you’ve established provenance. Public is good. Paperwork to show it’s been bought from a prestigious auction house, not a backstreet dealer. And perhaps an auction house who will accept payment in one country and delivery in another.

And with the provenance it must be clean right
Try it, and tell me how it works for you when you show up with a bag of cash to pay for your 1.4 Mil Journe... ::facepalm1::
Edited:
 
G
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ndgal ndgal
Do the big auction houses e

Try it, and tell me how it works for you when you show up with a bag of cash to pay for your 1.4 Mil Journe... ::facepalm1::

I never suggested paying in cash. Your sarcasm and face palms are not that useful in the debate either. You need to do some research my friend, I suggest you read the below. For example, the watch purchases can happily fulfil the role of integration alone...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Money laundering involves three steps: The first involves introducing cash into the financial system by some means ("placement"); the second involves carrying out complex financial transactions to camouflage the illegal source of the cash ("layering"); and finally, acquiring wealth generated from the transactions of the illicit funds ("integration").
 
ndgal
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G Gamma
Money laundering involves three steps: The first involves introducing cash into the financial system by some means ("placement"); the second involves carrying out complex financial transactions to camouflage the illegal source of the cash ("layering"); and finally, acquiring wealth generated from the transactions of the illicit funds ("integration").
You seem to know a lot about the subject...
Anyway, let's bring this thread back to the main topic which is watches. Not the stupid conspiracy theories regarding prices achieves at auctions.

Thank you.
 
pdxleaf
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I feel so naive after reading this. Hard to imagine the kind of money involved where you need to launder it. So this makes sense in the same way that black holes kindof make sense, like what my small brain can absorb.

I guess I might need to go back to my first watch love and stick to Hamiltons. It will be awhile before money launderers drive up those prices.

I think I saw a nice Stormking I for sale...
 
jhross98
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G Gamma
I never suggested paying in cash. Your sarcasm and face palms are not that useful in the debate either. You need to do some research my friend, I suggest you read the below. For example, the watch purchases can happily fulfil the role of integration alone...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_laundering

Money laundering involves three steps: The first involves introducing cash into the financial system by some means ("placement"); the second involves carrying out complex financial transactions to camouflage the illegal source of the cash ("layering"); and finally, acquiring wealth generated from the transactions of the illicit funds ("integration").

again this would not explain the philips premium relative to the other houses. . .if its the purchasing of the watches that "adds value" people should be using this technique at every auction house not just one

or for that matter why not just use your ill gotten cash to buy that SS rolex off of chrono 24. . .
 
abrod520
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jhross98 jhross98
i personally think diamonds would be FAR superior to laundering money / being tranpsortable than giving all of your name and contact and bank information to an auction house. . those records are easily available to the authorities

its a nice theory but i don't buy it

I dunno, I think diamonds are pretty traceable too, especially if they're illicit. Plus you'd have to use a shady dealer and all, so you wouldn't get a very good price for them when you sold them.

With watches, you not only get to launder your money but by doing so in a public forum, you're also raising the worth of the "portfolios" of your buddies. So nobody's inclined to speak out about it
 
jhross98
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abrod520 abrod520
I dunno, I think diamonds are pretty traceable too, especially if they're illicit. Plus you'd have to use a shady dealer and all, so you wouldn't get a very good price for them when you sold them.

With watches, you not only get to launder your money but by doing so in a public forum, you're also raising the worth of the "portfolios" of your buddies. So nobody's inclined to speak out about it

what makes a diamond illicit ?

how exactly can a diamond be traced ?

no shoddy dealer required. . walk into any merchant on 47th street in NY. . .suitcases of cash accepted
 
jhross98
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i guess the good news is its clear no one on this thread has any idea about money laundering LOL

 
abrod520
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jhross98 jhross98
what makes a diamond illicit ?

how exactly can a diamond be traced ?

no shoddy dealer required. . walk into any merchant on 47th street in NY. . .suitcases of cash accepted

I don't know the full details but everything I've heard out of the jewelry industry in the face of waning demand is that diamond provenance is the new big thing. Etchings or spectrometry analysis etc before they will be bought by the people willing to pay real money
 
Mark020
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I've said this before but Phillips can sell my entire collection if they want 😁 At their prices I'd be able to buy similar pieces for 50% of what I got within - let's say - 24 months.
 
abrod520
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Mark020 Mark020
I've said this before but Phillips can sell my entire collection if they want 😁 At their prices I'd be able to buy similar pieces for 50% of what I got within - let's say - 24 months.

Only if you're part of the in-crowd, otherwise you'd probably get a standard price.
 
Just Livin
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I have no money laundering skills. But it really doesn't take too long to find out how, if one had lots of illegally gained monies to dispose of could potentially benefit in the world of watches.

'Let’s say a drug dealer makes $1 million selling heroin. Instead of putting the money in the bank, the dealer creates a fictitious company and uses it to buy 100 high end watches. Once watches are received, he ships the watches overseas, but on the ship’s bill of lading, he lists them as fake watches worth little money. Once the watches reach their destination, a partner in that country sells them at their full price, and the dealer recoups his $1 million. Money trades hands in vast amounts without ever alerting the local tax authorities'.

But am sure this is all pure fiction 😗
 
NotAClue
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Money laundering aside, if watch prices keep rocketing like this by this time next year I will be opening threads about "the best batteries for my swatch watches"...
 
K
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a friend of mine sent few nice waches impossible to deny and guess what? phillps turned away from them. maybe he was.not part of the "Ozark club"
 
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