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watchyouwant
·Was anybody at the auction and can give a short impression on the event and the mood and results? Kind regards. Achim
Phillips auction in Geneva.......
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harrymai86
·Some modern steel Rolexs, the not hard to find, were sold for insane price, even well above grey market price for no reason.
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watchyouwant
·Too early.... Just realized part 2 has not even started.....we are 8 hours in front....kind regards. Achim
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wouter van wijk
·in general quite strong results at Phillips , most I guess 50% above estimate. 2998-1 tropical beauty sold a bit over 100k, in my opinion quite OK, but wouldn't have been surprised if it would have fetched 150k. fp journey unique pieces set records. zenith early primeros really strong were most surprising from yesterday
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killer67
·Cartier Assemytrique was a surprise for me.
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leetse2
·It seems there is something odd going on, as noted earlier several readily available modern pieces went for well over market value for no apparent reason. And results seem high overall, again for no discernible reason. Claims of money laundering have been brought up on other forums and social media outlets.
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jhross98
·modern pieces going for a premium is not unusual with phillips
overall a very strong auction -- if there is a covid effect i cannot see one
overall a very strong auction -- if there is a covid effect i cannot see one
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jumpingsecond
·-- if there is a covid effect i cannot see one
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Gamma
·Money laundering is the only reason I can think of for why people would pay well over the odds for ordinary watches readily available elsewhere for 30%+ less. 50,000 CHF for an FP Chronometre Bleu, 32,500 for a run of the mill Royal Oak Offshore Safari.....
The special editions and unique stuff is anyone’s guess that could just be down to egos competing for the same watch on the same day
The special editions and unique stuff is anyone’s guess that could just be down to egos competing for the same watch on the same day
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kanye_mouse
·Watching Day 2 right now ... big stories from day one were the 2 subscription FP Journes going for $1m+, JC Biver's 1518 did a big number, as did a 3417 Amagnetic, a few others. A lot of others outperformed estimates too - a couple Zeniths, the Tank Asymetrique mentioned. Mostly strong results, a few soft ones. You can tell when Bacs is surprised by a likely soft result: e.g., an Explorer dial 5513 just went for the low end of the estimate (100k hammer) and he seemed very surprised. An Omega Cal 33.3 (lot 72) from yesterday garnered the same reaction I thought.
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jhross98
·Watching Day 2 right now ... big stories from day one were the 2 subscription FP Journes going for $1m+, JC Biver's 1518 did a big number, as did a 3417 Amagnetic, a few others. A lot of others outperformed estimates too - a couple Zeniths, the Tank Asymetrique mentioned. Mostly strong results, a few soft ones. You can tell when Bacs is surprised by a likely soft result: e.g., an Explorer dial 5513 just went for the low end of the estimate (100k hammer) and he seemed very surprised. An Omega Cal 33.3 (lot 72) from yesterday garnered the same reaction I thought.
i noticed lot 72 as well. . it is hard having never seen any of these watches in person to know what is going on with prices relative to condition but that is a very low price for a 33.3 even if the dial didn't look that great.
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dsacks30
·Some of these prices for modern pieces that can easily be sourced from grey market or dealers make no sense, as was stated above. A 2018 Pepsi sold for 33,750, when it can be found every week at places like HQ Milton for roughly half the cost. Same goes for the Batman, which sold for 25,000 and can easily be found for 15-16K all day. Also applies to the Chronometre Bleu, modern Royal Oak, etc.
It looks like early Aquanauts are doing quite well - two "possibly unique" pieces from 2005 doubled the high estimate and sold for 131,250, while the Aquanaut for the Japanese market also doubled the high estimate and sold for 85,000.
Interestingly the Paul Newman 6241 did not reach the high estimate of 240,000 and sold for 200,000. I wonder if the Paul Newman mania is passing...
It looks like early Aquanauts are doing quite well - two "possibly unique" pieces from 2005 doubled the high estimate and sold for 131,250, while the Aquanaut for the Japanese market also doubled the high estimate and sold for 85,000.
Interestingly the Paul Newman 6241 did not reach the high estimate of 240,000 and sold for 200,000. I wonder if the Paul Newman mania is passing...
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wouter van wijk
·independents are rising strong and they will continue. last couple of auctions showed some really strong result for unique or first from series independent pieces. also some suprises btw with low results for instance plat daydate (to some not very suprising though..)
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tyrantlizardrex
·Some modern steel Rolexs, the not hard to find, were sold for insane price, even well above grey market price for no reason.
Why could that be? 😕
It seems there is something odd going on, as noted earlier several readily available modern pieces went for well over market value for no apparent reason.
Hmm... that is strange! 🤔
Some of these prices for modern pieces that can easily be sourced from grey market or dealers make no sense, as was stated above.
Surely not! 😗
BINGO! 👍
I made the same accusation publicly at an AHS lecture last year about the "unfathomable rise in auction prices vs. retail or private sale".
The representatives in the room from the big houses (Phillips, Christies, Sotheby's) stared the floor and kept very quiet.
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queriver
·Everything on Day 1 sold. So far on Day 2 everything sold, most over high estimates. Online bids coming from all regions - USA, Far East (esp HKG), Europe, Middle East. Even one winner from Cote d'Ivoire. Lot's of bidding from USA, not many online bids from China (perhaps they prefer phone bids)
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harrymai86
·Why could that be? 😕
Hmm... that is strange! 🤔
Surely not! 😗
BINGO! 👍
I made the same accusation publicly at an AHS lecture last year about the "unfathomable rise in auction prices vs. retail or private sale".
The representatives in the room from the big houses (Phillips, Christies, Sotheby's) stared the floor and kept very quiet.
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sdre
·Why could that be? 😕
Hmm... that is strange! 🤔
Surely not! 😗
BINGO! 👍
I made the same accusation publicly at an AHS lecture last year about the "unfathomable rise in auction prices vs. retail or private sale".
The representatives in the room from the big houses (Phillips, Christies, Sotheby's) stared the floor and kept very quiet.
Mind sharing more what happened / or what was the context of the lecture? What's AHS? Thanks C.
As much as I hate to allude this to stocks "pump and dump strategy", I believe many of these prices might cause grey dealers to mark up their prices for even higher with the typical excuse of "oh did you see the recent Phillips auction prices of so and so watches? Ours are cheaper, great deal, act fast now etc etc"
I fear it might further inflate prices even more before a correction of Rolex / patek models come back to more realistic pricing.
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tyrantlizardrex
·Mind sharing more what happened / or what was the context of the lecture? What's AHS? Thanks C.
The AHS is the Antiquarian Horological Society - closest comparison is the New York Horological Society I think.
The lecture was called The Nature of Uniqueness Between Vintage and Modern Wristwatch Markets.
Statement's were made along the lines of "no one know's why the same watch sells at auction for multiples of what it does as a private sale".
Combined with a ton of auction sales data, which shows pricing going through the roof, in line with financial restrictions designed to stop money laundering being put in place.
Having got to know quite a few folks in the auction world, everyone knows, no one wants to talk about it - the money flows, why question where it comes from?
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eugeneandresson
·Surely a money launderer would still want to get the most bang for his laundered-buck? I don’t understand why he would want to waste it this way by over-paying at auction (as is obvious the only laundry I do is stinky clothes)...
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jhross98
·The AHS is the Antiquarian Horological Society - closest comparison is the New York Horological Society I think.
The lecture was called The Nature of Uniqueness Between Vintage and Modern Wristwatch Markets.
Statement's were made along the lines of "no one know's why the same watch sells at auction for multiples of what it does as a private sale".
Combined with a ton of auction sales data, which shows pricing going through the roof, in line with financial restrictions designed to stop money laundering being put in place.
Having got to know quite a few folks in the auction world, everyone knows, no one wants to talk about it - the money flows, why question where it comes from?
i mean maybe this accounts for some small portion of the auction market. . .but the modern watches you are talking about are tiny fractions of gross sales. and given the large % of bids that come from the US i doubt this is a major factor in aggregate. christies and sotheby's have never gotten the super premium prices that Aurel seems to . . one of the reasons i always see if you are selling something pristine and special Philips is a good first call if they'll accept your watch
you'd have to be nuts laundering 25,000 by paying a 30% premium for a watch where there is another 10% bid-ask to re-sell it. . .
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