Phillips 2998 (November 2021)

Posts
1,301
Likes
3,087
It would be good to see the inside of the caseback. Definitely something not right with that back.
All in all a tempting watch for the "adventurous" collector.
 
Posts
5,308
Likes
24,288
One of the end links looks worn but to be fair I wouldn’t let end links put me off a watch.
Considering the value of the watch itself the end pieces seem like a consumable that can be later changed if you don’t like them.

Absolutely. I would not let any of the issues put me off this, as the heart of the attraction is the dial. Up to a certain price of course.

the reason I like to get to the bottom of niggly things like, if the end links are real, is it opens up the idea that the watch has passed through hands that have prepared it for sale - and then i wonder just how much the watch has been changed.

any thoughts about the lume plots? @watchyouwant ?
 
Posts
1,966
Likes
9,418
If you havent read the full preview of the Phillips Auction you need to head over to Speedmaster 101 and check out the latest blog entry:

https://speedmaster101.com/speedmaster-blog/

Good review of the interesting watches and I personally love the no holds barred discussion of the watches. Comments like:
"Is this a real bezel? I have no idea, none at all. Nor do you." (Quoted from text in link above)
are just priceless IMO. Puts it all in perspective, and a bit better than most. While 3/4 of the watches discussed are out of my comfort level I still really appreciate the insight and will watch the auction with much interest and continue trying to learn more before I dare enter this level of collecting.

Thanks for taking the time to write a good auction preview, as always the knowledge sharing is invaluable and appreciated.
 
Posts
602
Likes
548
I’m a bit late to this party and there are clearly some question marks raised about some of the individual parts of the watch. I wonder though is that mesmerising dial just too good too? The colouration is incredibly consistent and the lume looks very even and plump to me. I’m probably reading too much into it but I must admit I do not have the first hand experience and would not have the confidence to call that dial legit.
 
Posts
386
Likes
1,748
One of the end links looks worn but to be fair I wouldn’t let end links put me off a watch.
Considering the value of the watch itself the end pieces seem like a consumable that can be later changed if you don’t like them.

Agreed. The end links don’t matter that much
If you havent read the full preview of the Phillips Auction you need to head over to Speedmaster 101 and check out the latest blog entry:

https://speedmaster101.com/speedmaster-blog/

Good review of the interesting watches and I personally love the no holds barred discussion of the watches. Comments like:
"Is this a real bezel? I have no idea, none at all. Nor do you." (Quoted from text in link above)
are just priceless IMO. Puts it all in perspective, and a bit better than most. While 3/4 of the watches discussed are out of my comfort level I still really appreciate the insight and will watch the auction with much interest and continue trying to learn more before I dare enter this level of collecting.

Thanks for taking the time to write a good auction preview, as always the knowledge sharing is invaluable and appreciated.

Yes, I read this as well with great interest and admiration. A master class on reviewing vintage Speedmasters.
 
Posts
5,573
Likes
9,386
Questions, questions...... The lume plots are done in a way, that was typical for the time. See the "puffy" lume on Rolex subs from that era. But there are now a few re- lumers, who can mimic that as well. You can still get the old Bergeon water based Tritium which can replace the typical Radium aged lume look. I'm perplexed by a few little things: The lume plots between 8 -12 are all missing the same last little lume bit at the end of the plots towards the minute track. A few others as well. The hands are a mix match in my opinion; lume cut outs are square and rounded together. The hands are re- lumed to match ...... What? The re- lumed dial ? The original dial ? Impossible to say from pictures. Matching lume on dial plots and hands are not a good sign for me. They age differently. Dial plots are exposed on one surface; hands are exposed on 2 sides. Something else: that brown dial shows fairly even deterioration. A few sections still show the original darker black colour. As it should be. What happened to the sub dial edges? Uniform " scratches" in silver/white? Should be black? And how come, they are only there and the rest of the dial looks next to perfect ? And then there is this Bezel ..... But that is all just some gut feeling . Without handling it with patience, it all comes down to inconsistencies. Maybe all good. Maybe not, like the back.
 
Posts
386
Likes
1,748
Questions, questions...... The lume plots are done in a way, that was typical for the time. See the "puffy" lume on Rolex subs from that era. But there are now a few re- lumers, who can mimic that as well. You can still get the old Bergeon water based Tritium which can replace the typical Radium aged lume look. I'm perplexed by a few little things: The lume plots between 8 -12 are all missing the same last little lume bit at the end of the plots towards the minute track. A few others as well. The hands are a mix match in my opinion; lume cut outs are square and rounded together. The hands are re- lumed to match ...... What? The re- lumed dial ? The original dial ? Impossible to say from pictures. Matching lume on dial plots and hands are not a good sign for me. They age differently. Dial plots are exposed on one surface; hands are exposed on 2 sides. Something else: that brown dial shows fairly even deterioration. A few sections still show the original darker black colour. As it should be. What happened to the sub dial edges? Uniform " scratches" in silver/white? Should be black? And how come, they are only there and the rest of the dial looks next to perfect ? And then there is this Bezel ..... But that is all just some gut feeling . Without handling it with patience, it all comes down to inconsistencies. Maybe all good. Maybe not, like the back.

Thanks, very helpful points all. Is your concern about the bezel its relatively good condition compared to the case?
 
Posts
7,818
Likes
35,502
If you havent read the full preview of the Phillips Auction you need to head over to Speedmaster 101 and check out the latest blog entry:

https://speedmaster101.com/speedmaster-blog/

Good review of the interesting watches and I personally love the no holds barred discussion of the watches. Comments like:
"Is this a real bezel? I have no idea, none at all. Nor do you." (Quoted from text in link above)
are just priceless IMO. Puts it all in perspective, and a bit better than most. While 3/4 of the watches discussed are out of my comfort level I still really appreciate the insight and will watch the auction with much interest and continue trying to learn more before I dare enter this level of collecting.

Thanks for taking the time to write a good auction preview, as always the knowledge sharing is invaluable and appreciated.

Yes, great analysis there 👍
 
Posts
7,123
Likes
23,115
As to the end links:
I feel they are in a very different condition to the rest of the bracelet, indeed watch. They are perfectly flat across the width of the back, and that is an unusual condition.

I’ve discussed this with other collectors of Speedmasters from this era, and they seem to think this is how they came originally, although I have seen the tabs both bent in, and out relative to the rest of the back of the end-piece. Your thoughts?
 
Posts
1,521
Likes
4,774
Questions, questions...... The lume plots are done in a way, that was typical for the time. See the "puffy" lume on Rolex subs from that era. But there are now a few re- lumers, who can mimic that as well. You can still get the old Bergeon water based Tritium which can replace the typical Radium aged lume look. I'm perplexed by a few little things: The lume plots between 8 -12 are all missing the same last little lume bit at the end of the plots towards the minute track. A few others as well. The hands are a mix match in my opinion; lume cut outs are square and rounded together. The hands are re- lumed to match ...... What? The re- lumed dial ? The original dial ? Impossible to say from pictures. Matching lume on dial plots and hands are not a good sign for me. They age differently. Dial plots are exposed on one surface; hands are exposed on 2 sides. Something else: that brown dial shows fairly even deterioration. A few sections still show the original darker black colour. As it should be. What happened to the sub dial edges? Uniform " scratches" in silver/white? Should be black? And how come, they are only there and the rest of the dial looks next to perfect ? And then there is this Bezel ..... But that is all just some gut feeling . Without handling it with patience, it all comes down to inconsistencies. Maybe all good. Maybe not, like the back.

Hi Achim.
The silver lines you are seeing on the sub dial edges are light reflection I think.
The missing bit on the end of the plots near the minute track are pretty typical, I have always thought they were the end of a brush stroke.
Matching lume on plots and hands I have seen many times. I think the hands are fine.

The bezel looks different from a base 1000 on one of my watches that I have owned since well before the repros so I can't really comment on that without some research.

I really like this watch, I do hope it is all correct, it is stunning.

Cheers, Michael
 
Posts
5,308
Likes
24,288
I’ve discussed this with other collectors of Speedmasters from this era, and they seem to think this is how they came originally, although I have seen the tabs both bent in, and out relative to the rest of the back of the end-piece. Your thoughts?

Issue with the end links, and let me reiterate that it is not in any way a dealbreaker, is that the flat surface at the back is very flat and does not display any signs of wear, or repeated stress, that I would expect and do see on original number six end links.

All of this is simply another small piece of evidence to add into my valuation for the watch as a whole.

I suspect this relatively low estimate reflects the fact that the auction house is fully aware of all of the issues.

They just don’t have a policy of either pointing them out or correcting them.
 
Posts
2,597
Likes
5,656
Over on IG…

Sorry I’ll edit this… it’s a private account so I’ll wait to see if the info appears anywhere public. And actually I’ve just realised it was about the 2915 in lot 53, so completely irrelevant to this thread anyway 🤦
Edited:
 
Posts
365
Likes
454
i am very late to this party, and in waaaaaaaaay over my head but i noted two things;
First, there is a scratch on the 6 subdial, that is the same color as the rest of the dial. Would that be normal? I would have expected it to age to a different color if it was painted and to be silver it if was through to the base of the dial.
The engraving on the back looks like the relief has been "painted" to increase the contrast in the photographs. It could be photoshoped?