Omega Seamaster De Ville automatic 18k integrated bracelet

[kwh81]

Thank you all for valuable insights! I thought i should change the thread's name to "integrated bracelet condition" or do you think i should maybe start a new thread about shortening integrated bracelet? I'm not experienced in forum etiquette so wanted to ask.. i have new pictures.

 

[kwh81]

Davidt

4. Are you talking about colour or material. It’s not a silver dial. Id say it’s standard brass. The question is whether it originally had a silver or champagne finish and it’s hard to tell from your photos.

Thank you @Davidt for commenting on all the questions! I originally thought the dial material should be gold according to assumed model reference here https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-ultimate-seamaster-de-ville-thread.159035/page-3#post-2173610

Davidt

6. it’s hard to say based on your account. Frankly I don’t care a jot whether a watchmaker wanted to buy my watch. How does that impact their ability as a watchmaker? Also, you’ve no idea of any other factors influencing why they aren’t buying right now.
Re the estimate, that’s standard practice, quick over view, winds like gravel, our standard service charge for this type of watch is €x but to get a detailed assessment they need to open it up. Most places are unlikely to drop everything for you and start opening watches there and then (unless perhaps you have an existing relationship).
For the clasp, if they’re an Omega service centre, as far as I know, they can’t go bastardising your bracelet adding random parts from others references. They can only look on the extranet and offer you what’s available. For vintage that is generally, absolutely nothing or perhaps a moderns replacement.

I turned sceptical about their services because on their homepage (and on the phone before visiting) they promised to do a thorough maintenance assessment with before mentioned steps (opening the watch, removing movement etc.). They didn't do this and i would expect any business in any line of work to keep their word. Also it didn't feel like they were considering the issues that vintage collectors value like originality and taking photos from inside. Maybe the crown seal is impossible to change preserving the original crown and they know it. Problem is i don't know it and i have to trust them to do what is right for this watch from collectors point of view. Of course this does in no way, shape or form affect their watchmaking abilities, only affects how i feel about their service. Also i think it shouldn't be impossible to get a few quality photos on a 700€+ service, but they run their business and i choose where i take my business.

When i asked if they wanted to buy the watch, i wanted to get their honest opinion of the watch. I made no assumptions of their services on the basis of their answer. He brought up issues, and that brought me here to find out about those. So i thank him for that.

Davidt

I think the issue here is your expectations. You’ve taken it to an Omega approve service centre. Generally these places are quite constrained in their ability to deviate from factory specs and offer additional services.
If you go to an independent WM, you’ll probably find they able to be slightly more receptive to your ask.

I will look for another service. Thank you for advice! By the way, what "in PM" stands for? i got nothing from google..

 

[kwh81]

Here are additional photos of the bracelet. Here from both sides on a flat surface:
Here from the side in a hanging position:
Here from the front in a hanging position:
And a closeup from near the case:

 

[padders]

Your only option really is to cut it to fit*. A talented goldsmith could remove it altogether and weld on lugs but I think by that stage you are too deep into a financial black hole with no guarantee of success. Swiss Time Services do this kind of bracelet work, they can even remanufacture full bracelets but many talented jewellers can do so also. Normally the problem with vintage integrated bracelets is that they are too short, yours is the first where the problem is shortening it.

*if you don't want to do this, then realistically you need to either live with it as it is or sell it and buy one with lugs. That one looks nice so in your shoes I'd shorten it.

 

[X350 XJR]

kwh81

I'm not 100% sure i described it correctly. I can change the date by turning the hands back to 9 when i hear a click, and when i cross 12 again the date changes.

Then it is indeed likely a 562, a semi quick-set. The 565 is a true quick-set, achieved by pulling the crown out to it's third position.

FYI - Do not use the quick-set (563, 564, 565) with the hands positioned between 10 and 2 which can cause damage to the qs mechanism.

 

[kwh81]

X350 XJR

Then it is indeed likely a 562, a semi quick-set. The 565 is a true quick-set, achieved by pulling the crown out to it's third position.

FYI - Do not use the quick-set (563, 564, 565) with the hands positioned between 10 and 2 which can cause damage to the qs mechanism.

Thank you for clarifying this, there is only one position to pull the crown out 👍

 

[Davidt]

PM - precious metal.

I do think the route you take here is very dependent on your goals, including whether you want to keep the watch. Unless you’ve already decided this, I wouldn’t worry too much about who is and isn’t the right watchmaker for you, as this is often informed by the outcome you want.

Once you’ve decided this, the forum can help with more of the details.

 

[kwh81]

Ok, i was at Post Mortem 😁 this is better.

I think i'm in bit of a trouble here. I really love the watch and everything that comes with it, the interest in watchmaking, the old mechanics that keep on going accurately, the quality and uniqueness of it and also having a gold watch is part of it too. This is why i definitely do not want to part from it.

On the other hand, i did invest a lot of money in it and don't want to lose it's value by altering it to fit just me forever, no-one knows how times change and what the future holds. This is why i was hoping there might be some way - for example with different clasp type where the ends of the bracelet would meet in the middle, i guess not - to adjust the bracelet for me but at the same time being able to just switch the OG clasp back whenever if ever it would be time to part from it.

Maybe i'll try to fatten my wrist to match the bracelet as previously suggested 😒

Thanks for all the insights, i'll let you know when i figure this out 👍

 

[alalalalongines]

Tape something on the underside so it fattens the bracelet?

 

[Davidt]

This is the conflict that arises when we try and include investment in watch collecting.

Personally I assume everything I buy will be worth about 75% of what I paid. Frequently that isn’t the case, but it allows me not to concern myself with value retention etc and just enjoy the watch. This is kinda what I meant when I said you need to decide your objective and what you want from the watch. Do you want to own it, add it to your collection and enjoy it, accepting it may be worth slightly less than you paid? Then get the bracelet shortened. (This is what I’d do).

Do you want to safeguard your investment? In that case perhaps don’t shorten the bracelet, but also, you probably should’ve just stuck the money in gold sovereigns or an S+P500 tracker.

 

[kwh81]

Well, i meant invest as in spend money. Also i think there's a difference in expecting to get same or more money back selling it, than altering it in a way that it becomes impossible to sell in one piece, ever again. That's why i have been figuring out my options, which i think your comments have helped in 👍

 

[PlainVanilla]

Hello and welcome to OF!

That's a beautiful Seamaster de Ville you have here, you did really well! I read that before bringing that watch to a watchmaker, you didn't even know that an automatic watch could be handwound. It seems that you have scored quite a stunning watch for someone who started with zero knowledge on the subject. You see, I wrote the thread about SMDVs especially for people like you, so more people are able to cross reference and check the originality of a watch. And of course, it makes it easier to get hold of original parts.

This could well be ref. 7161 but I might have missed a few special references like ones with an integrated bracelet and other fancy stuff. Plus, this would indicate that the gold dial on ref. 7161 was actually an option as this one is silver. Only opening the watch will tell for sure. What is certain however, is that this one is from between January 1962 and December 1963 because of the full 'Seamaster de Ville' text with a round 'S' and the absence of a tritium indication.

Funny that it came from a drug dealer, and not entirely surprising (although if I were a drug dealer I would prefer a ref. LL 6590-1 with a diamond dial but that's just me).

1 - Maybe first get an estimate of how many centimeters you'd need to remove, that might help you decide (and make sure you don't remove too much).

2 - Finding a matching 18K gold folding clasp would be very hard IMHO.

3 - The Seamaster de Ville has what's called a 'split-stem' crown, which means that the stem connected to the crown is separated in two parts that click together. Due to this construction, you can remove the crown just by pulling it hard, and put it back by pushing it back in place. You can easily find a new, original crown on the bay and replace it yourself without any trouble.

4 - The dial on that watch is originally silver, and the lacquer has turned into a beautiful champagne colour due to UV exposure.

5 - The bracelet is in good condition from what I can see.

6 - That watch store doesn't seem like a good place to have this watch serviced. I would go to an independent watchmaker with a good track record.

About this watch not looking like new: I don't like new watches, they are too big and have no soul. This one seems to be in very good condition and I'm sure this gold watch will look very nice after a good cleaning and service.

Again, welcome to OF!

 

[kfranzk]

Hallo, I am a friend of 18k Constellations with bracelets. I allways have the problem that the 18k bracelet is too short, though I do not have a big wrist, maybe 17 to 18 cm.
I hate all those preowners, who shortened the bracelet and forgot about the spare links in the drawer.
So I try with prolongation links, but rarely succeed. And the goldsmith rolls his eyes.
So please do not shorten a gold bracelet!
Wear it as loose as traffiker would do to impress the girls!
Your grandchildren getting the watch in 50 years as legacy will be thankfull.
Gruss Konrad

Edited: Sep 3, 2023

 

[Syrte]

kfranzk

Hallo, I am a friend of 18k Constellations with bracelets. I allways have the problem that the 18k bracelet is too short, though I do not have a big wrist, maybe 17 to 18 cm.
I hate all those preowners, who shortened the bracelet and forgot about the spare links in the drawer.
So I try with prolongation links, but rarely succeed. And the goldsmith rolls his eyes.
So please do not shorten a gold bracelet!
Wear it as loose as traffiker would do to impress the girls!
Your grandchildren getting the watch in 50 years as legacy will be thankfull.
Gruss Konrad

Wow hello dear Mr. Konrad K, nice to see you here commenting about gold bracelet Omega watches, and welcome to this forum 👍

 

[SOG53]

I saw IG post by Eric Wind that he will be selling vintage bracelets- and one looked just like this.

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cwtvs7xsq3e/?igshid=MTc4MmM1YmI2Ng==

 

[kfranzk]

The watch looks perfect at your wrist, do not shorten it, no way![/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

 

[hen]

A alalalalongines

Tape something on the underside so it fattens the bracelet?

My thoughts exactly! Thin leather or rubber fastened with double sided tape on the under side of the bracelet. Saves the bracelet from wear as well.

 

[kwh81]

Hello @PlainVanilla! Nice of you to drop by and comment my post, i was hoping you might. I want to thank you again for your wonderful effort in explaining the history of the model and also listing, explaining and showing so many different SMDV references, special dials, movements, part numbers etc. in your threads. https://omegaforums.net/threads/the-ultimate-seamaster-de-ville-thread.159035/, https://omegaforums.net/threads/omega-seamaster-a-guide-to-special-dials.151225/. And by the way, how good of you to just casually drop 24 month window of production - in the 60's! - just by looking at the dial, no ref.nr. no nothing. Amazing!

The information you (and your fellow experts on this forum) have provided is absolutely priceless and gives a total beginner like myself a chance to recognize if the watch is a genuine Omega - at the minimum. If i indeed managed to find a decent example, i must have had some luck with me also because there are so many things to consider.

Few questions if i may:

PlainVanilla

2 - Finding a matching 18K gold folding clasp would be very hard IMHO.

Do you have any information if the folding clasp was an original option for this model? There are three examples of ones with integrated 18k bracelet in chrono24, and two of those have folding clasp. https://www.chrono24.fi/omega/seama...&man=omega&modelId=276&showpage=&sortorder=11

PlainVanilla

3 - You can easily find a new, original crown on the bay and replace it yourself without any trouble.

I took your advice and tried to find NOS crown from the bay, reference 069SX42531 and also 43041 was listed as old reference. Fell into bit of a rabbit hole with that one - too many wrong options and not enough knowledge on my part. I should look for one in solid gold, newer ones are gold plated i think. Also i'm not sure if i need the stems or would i be good with just the new crown?

PlainVanilla

Plus, this would indicate that the gold dial on ref. 7161 was actually an option as this one is silver.

Is it known to happen, that when a retailer signs a dial they alter other things in it or change the whole thing? If this would happen, would it still be considered original? In this case i'm wondering about the silver dial instead of gold - according to preassumed ref.nr. This is of course total speculation on my part..

Edited: Sep 4, 2023

 

[kwh81]

By the way. I was wondering before if anyone knew the average wrist size of a vintage watch enthusiast. Apparently someone has studied this: https://theslenderwrist.com/average-wrist-size-for-a-man/

So the correct answer is 18,42cm. Mine is 17,5cm. Okay, when i write this down it looks bit, i don't know, perv 😁. But size does matter when it comes to shortening an integrated bracelet. According to this not entirely scientific study, 80% of men have bigger wrist size than me. So, if i fit the bracelet perfectly for me (total length about 19cm i think) it would narrow out 80% of future interest in this watch. Just my way of looking at this. I'm leaning towards not shortening the bracelet like @kfranzk so strongly suggested.

 

[PlainVanilla]

Yes, the folding clasp was indeed an option on this model, as I have seen several of them with an integrated bracelet and an original folding clasp.

The original crown is probably gold plated so this would certainly do. You need the crown + stem.

Your dial is absolutely original. Most of the times, gold dials were optional of the highest quality pieces. As all the examples I had found for this reference had gold dials, I thought these were mandatory but it turns out it was an option. Several solid gold Seamaster de Ville references also had an option for Dauphine hands.