OMEGA APOLLO SOYUZ: Happy 45th birthday

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The following could explain some watches with serial numbers that are not in the correct range. The entire movement could have been replaced. According to this post, Omega had a policy in the 70's to replace entire movements. So finding a few watches with odd serial numbers could simply mean that the movement was replaced.

This isn't a statement about what took place with any AS model. It simply illustrates the wide range of possibilities. It reinforces for me that it is interesting to conjecture about possible scenarios, but absent facts, they are simply conjecture.

_____________

Makes sense
 
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after all .... useless discussion with no prove of anything and the only outcome is potential buyers are so uncertain about right and wrong and nonsense so they will go and buy something different. bummm price drop..... well done OF

luckily i don't have to care as i am not in the AS game

I agree, and this happens specially when were ignore evidence.

It is ok to make opinions, and question things, throw and hypothesis or a theory so we all comment and learn. I am new posting here, but I have read OF for a while and I have seen that many times we take positions and attack with no evidence, without any research, and we just damage a model, and the brand. This applies not only to the AS Speedy... Sometimes brands make mistakes, and those need to be settled somehow, and if we look at the big picture, it is better, as Omega collectors, to accept it. Look at what happened with Panerai... We need to be more humble. It sounds like a competition, of who knows more, who has the final word based on "useless discussion with no prove of anything".

I have a couple of friends, big collectors, that they just stay away from the Omega vintage market because of what Zilla said. On top all the major Omega vintage dealers talk s**t of the others, to the point that it is hard to know who can be trusted. This goes beyond OF, the way we approach things.

Enjoy your weekend
 
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The following could explain some watches with serial numbers that are not in the correct range. The entire movement could have been replaced. According to this post, Omega had a policy in the 70's to replace entire movements. So finding a few watches with odd serial numbers could simply mean that the movement was replaced.

This isn't a statement about what took place with any AS model. It simply illustrates the wide range of possibilities. It reinforces for me that it is interesting to conjecture about possible scenarios, but absent facts, they are simply conjecture.

_____________

I've seen these stories told before by people who apparently worked for Omega for many years, and they always come from an anonymous source.

Currently Omega policies do call for replacing movements, rather than servicing them in the local service center - the modular chronograph movements used in the Speedmaster reduced is an example. There are also policies and procedures that Omega has for local service centers to have movement banks, so supplies of these movements on hand. There are lists of movements that can be exchanged, and lists of movements that must be exchanged. Both lists are fairly small, and many of the movements are quartz and only a few are mechanical.

These movements that are swapped are set back and serviced, sometimes upgraded, and then sent out to be put back into watches. These have a 001 prefix number, rather than the normal 600 prefix number (talking about the part number, not the serial number).

At one time I could order a COSC serialized movement, and install it in a watch to replace say a very rusted movement. That is no longer the case, so Omega now requires these to be sent in and they will go to Bienne. So things like are not totally out of the question is what I'm saying, and there is a system to it clearly, at least in the present.

Now looking back in the same time frame that this was supposedly happening, Omega was replacing various mechanical and even quartz movements with "R prefix" serial numbers, and those have been posted about a fair bit on the forum over the years. Not my photo but one posted on the forum:

x131914-a6134937981c4608612bc4667cc16084.jpg.pagespeed.ic.5OlxXmeYXa.webp

So then replacement movements were marked clearly as such, so for me this adds a small wrinkle to this scenario...small but there.

If the widespread policy at the time was just to simply swap movements with normal 8 digit serial numbers as is alleged in the item you posted, then why would Omega even have the R prefix serial numbers? Why would those not just be swapped with regular 8 digit serial numbers?

Rhetorical question because of course like many things in this thread, there is no answer...

Cheers, Al
 
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Agree. I think that watches with replaced movements is a completely different ballgame, and they have to be analyzed case by case.

This applies not only to AS, but to any vintage Speedmaster.

Regarding the AS, I agree there are unanswered questions, but there are also facts that sometimes get ignored.

I think that some of the recent conversations helped me understand better a few things, and interpret better the available data.

Take care
 
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I can't believe that after all these clarifications of yours, you end up not telling us your personal thoughts on this story!

everyone said their idea / hypothesis

not sharing your hypothesis (even if it is as wrong as mine ... as others say ...) allows us to reason all together.

forums were born for this!

if in the most important moment of the speech you make a silent scene ... forgive me but ... even the rest you have said so far is worth nothing to me!

Respectfully, I think he has shared his opinion several times, which is that there simply isn't enough solid information to say what happened.

Perhaps it is because Archer is a watchmaker and an engineer, which gives him training in a systematic approach and a great deal of knowledge about watches. Unlike myself, who absent that knowledge and training am more willing to speculate.

In the end, i would place more value on his reluctance to offer an hypothesis than any hypothesis of mine, simply because his lack of comment comes from a place of greater knowledge.

Also, based on the time that he has taken to read and respond, I suspect that like all of us, he is just as engaged and intrigued, if not more so. He simply has more knowledge about the watchmaking world that shows that some suggested conclusions should not be considered conclusive. This should not be received as ill-intent, if in fact you perceive it thay way.

Of course, he can speak for himself.

Cheers,

Dave

Reality check:

Edited:
 
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Respectfully, I think he has shared his opinion several times, which is that there simply isn't enough solid information to say what happened.

Perhaps it is because Archer is a watchmaker and an engineer, which gives him training in a systematic approach and a great deal of knowledge about watches. Unlike myself, who absent that knowledge and training am more willing to speculate.

In the end, i would place more value on his reluctance to offer an hypothesis than any hypothesis of mine, simply because his lack of comment comes from a place of greater knowledge.

Also, based on the time that he has taken to read and respond, I suspect that like all of us, he is just as engaged and intrigued, if not more so. He simply has more knowledge about the watchmaking world that shows that some suggested conclusions should not be considered conclusive. This should not be received as ill-intent, if in fact you perceive it thay way.

Of course, he can speak for himself.

Cheers,

Dave

Reality check:


yes ... I agree with you ... he could have spoken for himself ... 😁

what a curious attitude your ...

however, I can confirm that in ten years of research the people who wanted to share their idea on the AS issue with me were important collectors and many watchmakers.

at the moment no idea from gardeners or pizza chefs (no offense to these categories of workers, of course mine is just a fact).

thank you
 
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yes ... I agree with you ... he could have spoken for himself ... 😁

what a curious attitude your ...

however, I can confirm that in ten years of research the people who wanted to share their idea on the AS issue with me were important collectors and many watchmakers.

at the moment no idea from gardeners or pizza chefs (no offense to these categories of workers, of course mine is just a fact).

thank you

Your lack of civility grows tiresome, as does this thread.

Ciao.
 
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Respectfully, I think he has shared his opinion several times, which is that there simply isn't enough solid information to say what happened.

Perhaps it is because Archer is a watchmaker and an engineer, which gives him training in a systematic approach and a great deal of knowledge about watches. Unlike myself, who absent that knowledge and training am more willing to speculate.

In the end, i would place more value on his reluctance to offer an hypothesis than any hypothesis of mine, simply because his lack of comment comes from a place of greater knowledge.

Also, based on the time that he has taken to read and respond, I suspect that like all of us, he is just as engaged and intrigued, if not more so. He simply has more knowledge about the watchmaking world that shows that some suggested conclusions should not be considered conclusive. This should not be received as ill-intent, if in fact you perceive it thay way.

Of course, he can speak for himself.

Cheers,

Dave

Reality check:


I am also an engineer, and I believe in a systematic approach. I think that some progress has been made because there is better interpretation of the available data, which I have listed in my previous posts.

Regarding the AS De Marchi, available facts confirm that the transformation occurred, where some of the Speedmasters come from, the LE numbering, and where the transformation was done. It is not clear when it happened and how the parts made it to De Marchi, and this conclusion is now accepted by the Omega Museum (as shown in the extract of AS #468).

Unless there is additional evidence, or some other facts arise, I think it is clear where we are.

I am not a watchmaker, but I have been collecting and reading about Speedmaster watches for 30 years, and I have dedicated two years to study this particular reference. I am on Instagram as cool.side.ot.moon where I share pics of other Speedmaster watches I have.

I think it is a waste of time to comment again and again on the same baseless theories in favor, or against. I also don't see any value in repeatedly attacking Omega as a brand based on suppositions. We as collectors are invested in it, some work for them or with them, or we simply like their watches.

If I find something relevant I will report it here, or I will comment is something meaningful shows up. Done for now.

Thank you
 
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Your lack of civility grows tiresome, as does this thread.

Ciao.

I have never allowed myself to tell you that you are uncivilized!
Judge me for what I say, but let me judge you for what you understand.
 
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I have never allowed myself to tell you that you are uncivilized!
Judge me for what I say, but let me judge you for what you understand.

If your goal here is to foster genuine discussions as you claim, this is not the way to do it.
 
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If your goal here is to foster genuine discussions as you claim, this is not the way to do it.

you're absolutely right, I absolutely do not want fraitendimenti. we share facts and hypotheses about the Apollo-Soyuz.
it is obvious that ... some small conflicts can happen, they happen in sport, in politics and even between husband and wife.
they happen where there is passion and I care a lot and if sometimes I am very direct I do not do it out of malice, I am like this ...

I had only expressed my curiosity in reading that he had answered for you.
therefore, faced with the unjustified accusation of incivility ... I think one (1) my only response was necessary.

nothing more

Let's definitively close this little parenthesis.
I hope very soon that you want to share your thoughts with everyone .... if you feel it is more appropriate to do so in private, feel free to write to me. I promise you that I will only answer once to your considerations.
I don't want to stress anyone
promised!
 
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I have never allowed myself to tell you that you are uncivilized!
Judge me for what I say, but let me judge you for what you understand.

I truly wish we could have a coffee together. I think we have more in common than differences.

I wish I had not posted that last comment. It wasn't helpful. At times, some of your comments are received as attacking a person who doesn't agree with you. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but that is how it comes across here. We would likely do better in person!

I understand that you may be frustrated with people such as myself who do not accept as fact some thoughts that you consider fact, especially as you have made a great effort at presenting your information. It isn't that I do not understand what you are saying or that I make any judgment of your intents or knowledge, it is simply that I for one do not consider all of your assumptions as facts. Feel free to disregard my opinion.
 
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I truly wish we could have a coffee together. I think we have more in common than differences.

I wish I had not posted that last comment. It wasn't helpful. At times, some of your comments are received as attacking a person who doesn't agree with you. Perhaps that wasn't your intent, but that is how it comes across here. We would likely do better in person!

I understand that you may be frustrated with people such as myself who do not accept as fact some thoughts that you consider fact, especially as you have made a great effort at presenting your information. It isn't that I do not understand what you are saying or that I make any judgment of your intents or knowledge, it is simply that I for one do not consider all of your assumptions as facts. Feel free to disregard my opinion.

Thank you very much for your reply.
I am very saddened if these things happen but I am immensely happy when they end up with a clarification.
maybe I live too far from you but if I could, I would like to offer you a coffee or a beer.

peace
 
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Thank you very much for your reply.
I am very saddened if these things happen but I am immensely happy when they end up with a clarification.
maybe I live too far from you but if I could, I would like to offer you a coffee or a beer.

peace

And I would gladly accept!
 
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I hope very soon that you want to share your thoughts with everyone .... if you feel it is more appropriate to do so in private, feel free to write to me. I promise you that I will only answer once to your considerations.
I don't want to stress anyone
promised!

I don't find your need to know my thoughts stressful - maybe puzzling, but certainly not stressful.

Cheers, Al
 
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Years ago, when I was in contact with the guys at Christie's, they told me that, for the "hot pieces", the strategy was to keep the starting price very low, within the reach of many, in order to attract many more people. Same strategy for PHILLIPS or what else ...?

If the PHILLIPS valuation for the Apollo-Soyuz is € 75,000, why lower the starting value so much ...?

we will soon see the end of this movie ...

Omega - A highly rare and attractive stainless steel limited edition chronograph wristwatch with bracelet, made to commemorate the first joint crewed international space mission and released for the Italian market, 1976 | The Geneva Watch Auction: XIII Geneva Saturday, May 8, 2021, Lot 86 | Phillips
 
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I agree, it is starting low.

I cannot read the LE number on the caseback, it is faded.

The movement matches on both auctions. These are the caseback pics of the Fortuna (Dec 6, 2018) and Phillips (May 8, 2021) auctions.

Fortuna says it is 305... Phillips is not mentioning the number.


 
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So, the final cost for the purchaser has been about 40K + ca 8% if he/she is in Switzerland... The only one that has made money with this watch has been the auction house (and the government with the taxes). Good news for the ones that love watches not as an investment but for collecting and love to them.