Newer Collector in need of help! (Evaluation of Cosmic TDMP & Seamaster 120 / 600)

[318aye]

Hi Omega Forums! My first post will be a little long, but thanks in advance for any help! Hoping to get some directional advice and evaluation on a few watches I'm considering. I'm a newer watch enjoyer and I'm getting ready to add another Omega to my collection to commemorate my upcoming wedding, possibly getting the caseback engraved. My current daily wear is an Omega Dynamic Ref. 166.0310 (https://www.chrono24.com/omega/dyna...er-1904785--id13449561.htm?checkoutId=1946681) and I've really enjoyed owning it. I don't need my next watch to have quite the same amount of utility as the Dynamic, but I'd love it to be able to be worn somewhat regularly in nice weather. My price range is 5k and under and I'm primarily after a unique piece that can be "well bought" value wise and hold up ok with a service every few years. Many of Omega's offerings have stood out to me styling wise and I've had good luck with my current one so I figured why not explore the brand further!

I've dug around a bit within existing threads, but would love input on my individual situation. Sorry in advance if I haven't searched enough!

Here are my candidates:

Cosmic TDMP:

If I'm honest I somewhat had my heart set on this model. I was almost ready to impulsively pull the trigger on #1 below, and then I started actually doing my homework on the model in general and I'm glad I did. I'm up to speed on the legacy case design causing water issues that have turned most TDMP's on the market into redials, but what I'm unclear on is how well redials hold their value (loaded question I'm sure) and how reliably these run. I understand that a discerning collector will favor originality and I don't blame them. I would be fine with either an original dial / hands / case piece that showed its age OR a cleaner redial provided that redial isn't simply a rip off and would hold some semblance of value.

Here's what I'd love to know more about on the TDMP:
- General pricing guidelines on an "acceptable" redial vs. an original piece with a fair amount of patina (subjective, I know, and we can discuss further)? In essence, I'm asking is there a real market for redials in general or is this something that people fall into unknowingly and I should avoid at all costs?
- Realistic outlook for cautious regular use; I've heard the lack of sealing in the case makes this an unattractive option for those that want to get their collection out of the case often.
- Am I out of line to expect either a high quality redial or worn original TDMP to be feasible under 5k?

Individual pieces I'm considering (these are all private Chrono24 sellers, which is a bit off putting):

#1 - https://www.chrono24.com/omega/omega-cosmic-triple-calendar-moonphase-1946--id28079934.htm
Upon actually researching them, this seems to be a pretty clear redial (Y/N?). The second & day hands also seem to be wrong as well. The crown being unsigned seems to be hit or miss with these, not always an indicator of trouble but not great to see?
How would you assess the dial of this watch? Any other conditional notes?

#2 - https://www.chrono24.com/omega/cosmic-triple-date-moonphase-calendar--id27486588.htm
This one isn't my preferred reference (I like the full numeral version), but I still very much enjoy the design. I can't discern if this dial is simply a worn original or a poor redial (day orientation from 9-23 seems correct but things like the brand insignia seem off).
How would you assess the dial of this watch? Any other conditional notes?

#3 - https://www.chrono24.com/omega/omega-cosmic-triple-date-moonphase--id25505963.htm
Again, seemingly original (clean enough to be suspect, imo) but I have had trouble getting the same answer twice as far as dial configuration goes for these as the references seemed to vary. The moonphase / seconds dial sees to be missing detail and the brand insignia being raised doesn't seem right?
How would you assess the dial of this watch? Any other conditional notes?

#4 - https://www.chrono24.com/omega/cosmic-ref2471--id27378276.htm
The day numerals certainly look to have been touched up, but the rest of the dial seems like it could be original?
How would you assess the dial of this watch? Any other conditional notes?

After getting somewhat spooked by the intricacies of buying a TDMP, I started digging around for other fun options within my price range, and landed on two Seamasters.

Seamaster 600:

I'm really only in on this watch in this particular configuration (white technical dial). I had seen one come across a vintage watch reseller earlier and wasn't ready to buy and haven't seen another until this one. I have many other black dials in my life already and this would be a welcome change.

Here's what I'd love to know more about on the 600:
- General pricing guidelines? The price is certainly more attractive than the TDMP, but I'm not sure how much of an overpay this specific piece would be.
- Any known issues / reasons to stay away?
- Feasible as a regular wear?

I'm really only considering the one piece below:

#1 - https://www.omegaenthusiastltd.com/product-page/1965-omega-seamaster-600-watch-3
The watch seems incredibly well kept and I have no reason to think it's a redial. Seller claims it's original and seems reputable.
Any general thoughts as to condition / originality based on its presentation from the seller?

Seamaster 120:

Again, I'm really attracted to this particular configuration. The overall condition of the watch doesn't bother me at all, but the notes from the seller about the dial & second hand being changed out do give me pause. If it's truly an Omega service I don't think that turns me off, but perhaps I'm missing a large hit to its value there?

Here's what I'd love to know more about on the 120:
- General pricing guidelines? Is the price out of bounds for a watch that might have had its configuration changed? I hesitate to call it a redial in the same vein as the TDMP's above, but it certainly doesn't seem original.
- Any known issues / reasons to stay away?
- Feasible as a regular wear?

I'm really only considering the one piece below:
#1 - https://www.chrono24.com/omega/rare...e-bezel-extract-166027-166027--id27209974.htm
Any general thoughts as to condition / originality based on its presentation from the seller?

This is an absolute wall of text so if you've made it this far, you must really want to help out a watch newbie. Thanks in advance! Do let me know if I can clarify anything.

Edited: Apr 9, 2023

 

[318aye]

Additionally, if anyone can point me to a cleaner TDMP in / around my price range, I'm all for it. Cheers!

 

[Fatcat]

For the Seamaster 120 , no brain fully original was mine until end of 2021.

Paul

 

[cristos71]

I'd suggest you make 3 posts, one for each reference. Also post pictures aswell as all those links, it's too much work to click back and forth and no-one will be able to follow the reply anyway.

But to quickly answer in no depth a couple of your questions, all redials of TDMP's should be rejected and yes it is possible to find one with time, knowledge and patience for under €5K

Here's a good post with many Cosmic TDMP''s to help you educate yourself regarding original dials.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/vintage-triple-date-moonphase-movements-and-pics.40773/

Edited: Apr 9, 2023

 

[Dan S]

Personally, I would never buy a redialed TDMP Cosmic, but you're also very unlikely to find one that is totally clean. The one you showed in the thread is an absolutely horrible re-dial and there is also major damage by "28", probably due to reattaching the dial foot. I didn't look at any of your links.

You may want to see if you can tolerate some signs of aging, since most of them will be that way if they haven't been repainted.

 

[Davidt]

I’ll refrain from commenting on the TDMP as they’re out of my wheelhouse.

SM600
Great watches at the entry level end of the spectrum. These Technical dials are more sought after and command a premium. They’re bullet proof, easy to service due to the 6xx movement and can certainly stand up to daily wear with a bit of care. Personally I think $2k is high though, even serviced.
Unserviced I’d expect to pay £800-1000 GBP or with patience and the knowledge to act quickly, possibly as low as £600.
I can understand why a noob my pay 2k for it purely for convenience but you’ll struggle to sell it anywhere near that price if you decided to move it on.

SM120
Again, great watches and certainly suitable for (careful) daily wear. I also still think these are good value when compared to other 60’s divers. However, not at £4k/$5k. Even with a nice blue bezel, that’s too high imo. I’d say a nice example, head only could be had for £2k and a very good example for £2.5-8k in the current market.
Also, and I know not everyone will agree with me, I don’t think the blue hand is correct for a SM120.

 

[318aye]

Fatcat

For the Seamaster 120 , no brain fully original was mine until end of 2021.

Paul

Good to know! I take that to mean they generally hold up well under daily use. When you say "brain", what are you referring to? Another gentleman referred to "head only" so I think I'm missing a key point about that model. Perhaps referring to the watch separate from the bezel?

cristos71

I'd suggest you make 3 posts, one for each reference. Also post pictures aswell as all those links, it's too much work to click back and forth and no-one will be able to follow the reply anyway.

But to quickly answer in no depth a couple of your questions, all redials of TDMP's should be rejected and yes it is possible to find one with time, knowledge and patience for under €5K

Here's a good post with many Cosmic TDMP''s to help you educate yourself regarding original dials.

https://omegaforums.net/threads/vintage-triple-date-moonphase-movements-and-pics.40773/

Good call on the post construction, I'll do that shortly and follow that as I come across other pieces. Sorry for the wall of text! Thank you for the level set on TDMP's in general. I'll aim for originality, and it's encouraging to hear that they're attainable at that price point.

Thank you for the reference thread. I've been trying to use the link below as a guide as well.

Dan S

Personally, I would never buy a redialed TDMP Cosmic, but you're also very unlikely to find one that is totally clean. The one you showed in the thread is an absolutely horrible re-dial and there is also major damage by "28", probably due to reattaching the dial foot. I didn't look at any of your links.

You may want to see if you can tolerate some signs of aging, since most of them will be that way if they haven't been repainted.

I'm certainly not opposed to a watch that shows its age, and it seems like redials in any capacity seem very much to be second class citizens. We'll try and strive for originality and I'll make less obtrusive individual threads as I come across pieces to vet.

Davidt

I’ll refrain from commenting on the TDMP as they’re out of my wheelhouse.

SM600
Great watches at the entry level end of the spectrum. These Technical dials are more sought after and command a premium. They’re bullet proof, easy to service due to the 6xx movement and can certainly stand up to daily wear with a bit of care. Personally I think $2k is high though, even serviced.
Unserviced I’d expect to pay £800-1000 GBP or with patience and the knowledge to act quickly, possibly as low as £600.
I can understand why a noob my pay 2k for it purely for convenience but you’ll struggle to sell it anywhere near that price if you decided to move it on.

SM120
Again, great watches and certainly suitable for (careful) daily wear. I also still think these are good value when compared to other 60’s divers. However, not at £4k/$5k. Even with a nice blue bezel, that’s too high imo. I’d say a nice example, head only could be had for £2k and a very good example for £2.5-8k in the current market.
Also, and I know not everyone will agree with me, I don’t think the blue hand is correct for a SM120.

This is perfect feedback, thank you very much for your thorough response. I think the seller of the 600 certainly has a buttoned up, nice watch to sell and is looking for buyers like me who don't have access to venues with more attractive pricing or can't vet on their own (womp). I don't really mind the overpay THAT much for the peace of mind trade off, but it certainly compels me to look a little deeper and see if I can't find something a little more competitively priced.

On the 120, when you say "head only", are you referring to the watch without the bezel? Or am I missing something else entirely? (Thanks in advance, google did not prove useful on that front). I think the seller says as much in the notes on that piece (that omega themselves changed the dial and second hand in 2020) so I agree it's likely not "correct". I certainly find it attractive, but probably not attractive enough to buy a modified piece at 2x it's normal value.

 

[Davidt]

Head only = watch (inc bezel) but no bracelet.

 

[Bruce235]

World's longest first post ever. I suggest separating your post for each reference and your response are really long too.

Anyway, "head only" means no strap or bracelet. Brackets can sell for over $1000 depending on model and condition and an authentic buckle and strap can also add a lot.

 

[Davidt]

Bruce235

World's longest first post ever. I suggest separating your post for each reference and your response are really long too.

Anyway, "head only" means no strap or bracelet. Brackets can sell for over $1000 depending on model and condition and an authentic buckle and strap can also add a lot.

For clarity, it’s worth noting that most of the bracelets for the SM120 (and SM600) don’t sell for $1000. The common lot seen bracelets on these models are 200-500.

 

[cristos71]

318aye

Thank you for the reference thread. I've been trying to use the link below as a guide as well.

I just took a look and that is quite a good clip, he's actually used some of mine as reference.

 

[TimeODanaos]

First of all, congratulations and best wishes for your forthcoming wedding!
As for some of your other points:

318aye

When you say "brain", what are you referring to?

His post means "This is a no-brainer (i.e. straightforward decision), it's original. I [the poster] should know, this watch used to belong to me until 2021." You might want to look at https://omegaforums.net/threads/seamaster-120-166-027-blue-bezel-updated.126721/.

318aye

Another gentleman referred to "head only" so I think I'm missing a key point about that model. Perhaps referring to the watch separate from the bezel?

This expression means "without any strap/bracelet".

318aye

Good call on the post construction

Yep, it certainly is!

Good luck in your searches - even more with your wedding.

Edited: Apr 9, 2023

 

[theluckyluke]

Interesting post! I guess the other question is… when is your wedding? It can take a while to find a suitable example that you think is good enough for the big day!

 

[318aye]

Davidt

For clarity, it’s worth noting that most of the bracelets for the SM120 (and SM600) don’t sell for $1000. The common lot seen bracelets on these models are 200-500.

Got it re: "Head only". I've very much enjoyed dressing watches up or down via the strap (and I'm not much of a metal bracelet person) so I don't think I'll be after a fully original setup. Thank you for the info!

 

[318aye]

Bruce235

World's longest first post ever. I suggest separating your post for each reference and your response are really long too.

Anyway, "head only" means no strap or bracelet. Brackets can sell for over $1000 depending on model and condition and an authentic buckle and strap can also add a lot.

I know, apologies. Trying to find a clean segue to break the thread

 

[318aye]

cristos71

I just took a look and that is quite a good clip, he's actually used some of mine as reference.

Hah! Small world I suppose.

 

[318aye]

TimeODanaos

First of all, congratulations and best wishes for your forthcoming wedding!
As for some of your other points:

His post means "This is a no-brainer (i.e. straightforward decision), it's original. I [the poster] should know, this watch used to belong to me until 2021." You might want to look at https://omegaforums.net/threads/seamaster-120-166-027-blue-bezel-updated.126721/.


This expression means "without any strap/bracelet".


Yep, it certainly is!

Good luck in your searches - even more with your wedding.

Thank you for the kind words! And even more for the pertinent ownership info, perhaps I'll follow up.

 

[318aye]

theluckyluke

Interesting post! I guess the other question is… when is your wedding? It can take a while to find a suitable example that you think is good enough for the big day!

We've two months to go. If it doesn't materialize, I have alternatives. Perhaps picking something out on the honeymoon.