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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFGood to note that this forum is becoming just as poisonous as some elements of this hobby.
Over and out.
No need for that .... it just feeds the beast...
I am right behind you....
Best
bill
New vintage Ultraman for sale
No need for that .... it just feeds the beast...
I am right behind you....
Best
bill
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFI was more referring to the debate in the closed thread where Omega is less 'extracting' from the archives and more 'authenticating' based on pictures/in person. I know it falls within the known S/N range but what are the odds that both of these (..503 and ...563) were ultraman's...
I would say its almost impossible for Omega to authenticating' based on pictures/in person..... that would be totally subjective to the person doing the inspection and that is not something that is repeatable with a high level of accuracy.
When I used to get confirmation from John from the archives. ( early to late 1990s ).. it would be to confirm a s/n to a case ref number.... and earlier watches that had case s/n and movement s/n to confirm they left the factory together and confirm the case ref.... would also give a date of sale and what distributor/ dealer it was sold to...
Boy , I am sorry I missed that thread....
Good Hunting
bill
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simonsays
·Hello @Bill Sohne
Good Afternoon, and if we all agreed what a boring place this would be.
Firstly I would like to say that I am not someone who chips in on forums with 'this is wrong, thats wrong' just to have something to post.
I do not collect NOS watches, or mint, but I do pride myself on finding good examples that have dials and hands possibly patterned but in good condition, cases that may well be worn, but not polished. Original pushers and crowns are also nice to see. So perhaps unconsciously the watch repairer is the enemy when I look for the type of unmolested watch that interests me.
So no, not a random sampling, very much skewed to what I find acceptable.
Nevertheless there are no shortage of watches for me to choose from. Even though I have a few military watches and mostly tool watches in my collection, none of them have this kind of hand damage.
The watch in question would fall well within my requirements in normal circumstances. It looks very good, and very coeval, which really is my main consideration.
The watch has plenty of gunk under the bezel, the case back seal has melted, the pushers look original. Under close inspection it is obvious this watch has not had professional attention for some time. All good signs.
Except for the hands which look quite battered. Its best defence is that all the hands look damaged and not just the central second hand.
As you say
'The impossible call is did the hand come off the same watch that it is now on ?...... no matter if it has a chip or not... bottom line is we will never know for sure with the info that we have in front of us.'
BUT The fact that it has an Extract will make many people blindly have faith in it. That is why I feel strongly about it, and will not give it the benefit of the doubt.
My issue with it is that the value in this particular watch is 50% or more, in that this hand BELONGS to THIS watch. I have no reason to believe it did, and because it has been on and off so many times it could have come from anywhere.
Personally I am not a buyer either. If I was I would want something more concrete than I see here to justify it entering my collection(plus a lottery win)
Being told 'well don't buy it' is a polite way of telling me to be quiet. Or am I missing something? I am here to discuss watches not tell people what I have bought or what to buy.
Best of luck with your journey too, and thanks for contributing
Simon
Good Afternoon, and if we all agreed what a boring place this would be.
Firstly I would like to say that I am not someone who chips in on forums with 'this is wrong, thats wrong' just to have something to post.
I do not collect NOS watches, or mint, but I do pride myself on finding good examples that have dials and hands possibly patterned but in good condition, cases that may well be worn, but not polished. Original pushers and crowns are also nice to see. So perhaps unconsciously the watch repairer is the enemy when I look for the type of unmolested watch that interests me.
So no, not a random sampling, very much skewed to what I find acceptable.
Nevertheless there are no shortage of watches for me to choose from. Even though I have a few military watches and mostly tool watches in my collection, none of them have this kind of hand damage.
The watch in question would fall well within my requirements in normal circumstances. It looks very good, and very coeval, which really is my main consideration.
The watch has plenty of gunk under the bezel, the case back seal has melted, the pushers look original. Under close inspection it is obvious this watch has not had professional attention for some time. All good signs.
Except for the hands which look quite battered. Its best defence is that all the hands look damaged and not just the central second hand.
As you say
'The impossible call is did the hand come off the same watch that it is now on ?...... no matter if it has a chip or not... bottom line is we will never know for sure with the info that we have in front of us.'
BUT The fact that it has an Extract will make many people blindly have faith in it. That is why I feel strongly about it, and will not give it the benefit of the doubt.
My issue with it is that the value in this particular watch is 50% or more, in that this hand BELONGS to THIS watch. I have no reason to believe it did, and because it has been on and off so many times it could have come from anywhere.
Personally I am not a buyer either. If I was I would want something more concrete than I see here to justify it entering my collection(plus a lottery win)
Being told 'well don't buy it' is a polite way of telling me to be quiet. Or am I missing something? I am here to discuss watches not tell people what I have bought or what to buy.
Best of luck with your journey too, and thanks for contributing
Simon
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!Hello @Bill Sohne
BUT The fact that it has an Extract will make many people blindly have faith in it. That is why I feel strongly about it, and will not give it the benefit of the doubt.
Simon
What extract? Look again.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerMy issue with it is that the value in this particular watch is 50% or more, in that this hand BELONGS to THIS watch. I have no reason to believe it did, and because it has been on and off so many times it could have come from anywhere.
But the argument that "the hand could have come from anywhere" is true regardless if the hand has damage or not.
Damage in and of itself is not evidence of the hand being from another watch.
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t_swiss_t
·But the argument that "the hand could have come from anywhere" is true regardless if the hand has damage or not.
Damage in and of itself is not evidence of the hand being from another watch.
Agreed. The conclusion of 'I don't trust this watch' is fine. Reasonably, that conclusion could be based on the (new) lack of extract and that we don't have a great idea of how these are verified / given an extract. But, the reasoning presented above doesn't have the ring of syllogism about it. Reminds me of when math problems are solved incorrectly but somehow the right number pops out at the end.
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFHi Simon
Agree we vote with our money....
WE need to determine if what is presented to you or me or whom ever the buyer / bidder might be.... be comfortable... and at what price...
I cant say how any or everyone would have blind faith in a extract... they should not but that is just my opinion....
we are in agreement , I personally dont take a extract as blind faith....
Best you can do is bring questions up as we all do....
You brought up questions and other gave plausible reasoning of the condition of the hands...
and you kept pushing the point of the damaged hand and how we dont know if it was original to the watch or added later.... and how much weight we would count on the extract.....
At this point its like bring a horse to water... but you cant make it drink.....
So when you come back and to keep[ pushing your point ... its just over kill..... as the members who read this thread have most likely came to the same conclusions.... the ones who really need to read this thread might not even be a member here.....
So getting the response , that you dont have to buy it .... is just a gut reaction.... from anyone on the forum..... please do not take it as a hard insult... it is more like ... Yes we hear you .... and understand... There is no one here to the best of my knowledge that can say 100% certainty that is a put together....
So the best anyone can say is I would not buy that with my money..... at lest depending on final price that is ... if it was 2000$ I would be a buyer but at 10,000 I would not be....
So as they say on the court... " No blood , No foul !"
Best regards
bill
Agree we vote with our money....
WE need to determine if what is presented to you or me or whom ever the buyer / bidder might be.... be comfortable... and at what price...
I cant say how any or everyone would have blind faith in a extract... they should not but that is just my opinion....
we are in agreement , I personally dont take a extract as blind faith....
Best you can do is bring questions up as we all do....
You brought up questions and other gave plausible reasoning of the condition of the hands...
and you kept pushing the point of the damaged hand and how we dont know if it was original to the watch or added later.... and how much weight we would count on the extract.....
At this point its like bring a horse to water... but you cant make it drink.....
So when you come back and to keep[ pushing your point ... its just over kill..... as the members who read this thread have most likely came to the same conclusions.... the ones who really need to read this thread might not even be a member here.....
So getting the response , that you dont have to buy it .... is just a gut reaction.... from anyone on the forum..... please do not take it as a hard insult... it is more like ... Yes we hear you .... and understand... There is no one here to the best of my knowledge that can say 100% certainty that is a put together....
So the best anyone can say is I would not buy that with my money..... at lest depending on final price that is ... if it was 2000$ I would be a buyer but at 10,000 I would not be....
So as they say on the court... " No blood , No foul !"
Best regards
bill
Hello @Bill Sohne
Good Afternoon, and if we all agreed what a boring place this would be.
Firstly I would like to say that I am not someone who chips in on forums with 'this is wrong, thats wrong' just to have something to post.
I do not collect NOS watches, or mint, but I do pride myself on finding good examples that have dials and hands possibly patterned but in good condition, cases that may well be worn, but not polished. Original pushers and crowns are also nice to see. So perhaps unconsciously the watch repairer is the enemy when I look for the type of unmolested watch that interests me.
So no, not a random sampling, very much skewed to what I find acceptable.
Nevertheless there are no shortage of watches for me to choose from. Even though I have a few military watches and mostly tool watches in my collection, none of them have this kind of hand damage.
The watch in question would fall well within my requirements in normal circumstances. It looks very good, and very coeval, which really is my main consideration.
The watch has plenty of gunk under the bezel, the case back seal has melted, the pushers look original. Under close inspection it is obvious this watch has not had professional attention for some time. All good signs.
Except for the hands which look quite battered. Its best defence is that all the hands look damaged and not just the central second hand.
As you say
'The impossible call is did the hand come off the same watch that it is now on ?...... no matter if it has a chip or not... bottom line is we will never know for sure with the info that we have in front of us.'
BUT The fact that it has an Extract will make many people blindly have faith in it. That is why I feel strongly about it, and will not give it the benefit of the doubt.
My issue with it is that the value in this particular watch is 50% or more, in that this hand BELONGS to THIS watch. I have no reason to believe it did, and because it has been on and off so many times it could have come from anywhere.
Personally I am not a buyer either. If I was I would want something more concrete than I see here to justify it entering my collection(plus a lottery win)
Being told 'well don't buy it' is a polite way of telling me to be quiet. Or am I missing something? I am here to discuss watches not tell people what I have bought or what to buy.
Best of luck with your journey too, and thanks for contributing
Simon
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFWhat extract? Look again.
There was a extract there the other day...... as the s/n was transcribed incorrectly...
Not a big deal.... but the logic is still sound... if the extract was present.... it can possible imply " correctness" .... is not founded....
Best
bill
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFAgreed. The conclusion of 'I don't trust this watch' is fine. Reasonably, that conclusion could be based on the (new) lack of extract and that we don't have a great idea of how these are verified / given an extract. But, the reasoning presented above doesn't have the ring of syllogism about it. Reminds me of when math problems are solved incorrectly but somehow the right number pops out at the end.
Any conclusion with a high % based on a extract as opposed to the physical watch itself.... is kind of upside down in my book....
conversely if the watch can stand on its own.... and the extract can back it up more... that is a different issue... but keep in mind I dont think Omega archives have what hand was on the watch when it left the factory... but would help on movement serial number matched to a case ref... and a time period.... that is more in line...
Good Hunting
Bill
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padders
··Oooo subtitles!I know that but wasn’t sure if Simon has noticed that there was no longer a valid extract for the watch. Hence my selective quote. No extract, no chance of anyone getting false security from it.
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFI know that but wasn’t sure if Simon has noticed that there was no longer a valid extract for the watch. Hence my selective quote. No extract, no chance of anyone getting false security from it.
Great point...
But like most once the cow lease the barn.... kind of hard to get it back in..... unless the auction house makes a point of notifying any bidder who already left a bid...
best
bill
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simonsays
·Yes, possibly guilty of over posting, I try just respond to valid points, but when posts question you directly it is easy to do. So sorry for that.
I was the person who pointed out to the auction house that the Extract was wrong, so I am well aware of its disappearance and a thorn in peoples side on more than just this forum(although the email response from Bukowskis was vey polite and grateful)
As said, there is no one who can absolutely say this watch is right or wrong except the original owner. It is a very pretty watch and at 145.012 money would be a joy to add to the collection. What the premium is on top will be interesting to see.
I was the person who pointed out to the auction house that the Extract was wrong, so I am well aware of its disappearance and a thorn in peoples side on more than just this forum(although the email response from Bukowskis was vey polite and grateful)
As said, there is no one who can absolutely say this watch is right or wrong except the original owner. It is a very pretty watch and at 145.012 money would be a joy to add to the collection. What the premium is on top will be interesting to see.
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simonsays
·Agreed. The conclusion of 'I don't trust this watch' is fine. Reasonably, that conclusion could be based on the (new) lack of extract and that we don't have a great idea of how these are verified / given an extract. But, the reasoning presented above doesn't have the ring of syllogism about it. Reminds me of when math problems are solved incorrectly but somehow the right number pops out at the end.
Syllogism at its finest
This watch has an orange hand, It has an Omega extract saying it has an orange hand, This watch always had an orange hand.
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Bill Sohne
··Bill @ ΩFYes, possibly guilty of over posting, I try just respond to valid points, but when posts question you directly it is easy to do. So sorry for that.
I was the person who pointed out to the auction house that the Extract was wrong, so I am well aware of its disappearance and a thorn in peoples side on more than just this forum(although the email response from Bukowskis was vey polite and grateful)
As said, there is no one who can absolutely say this watch is right or wrong except the original owner. It is a very pretty watch and at 145.012 money would be a joy to add to the collection. What the premium is on top will be interesting to see.
Hi @simonsays
your comment... "a thorn in peoples side on more than just this forum..."
I am sorry you feel like your annoying members of this forum..... that is not the case here..... as you also confirmed in your above post you have an understanding of other members responses.....
"Yes, possibly guilty of over posting, I try just respond to valid points, but when posts question you directly it is easy to do. So sorry for that."
So once again please let me state this as clearly as I can ...
You, @simonsays is not a thorn in the side of this forum. I cant speak for other places in your "MORE" comment....
The members here seem to be they type when someone says " be-careful that is a hot cup of coffee..." say it once and done....
after that well... things can get more intense .....
Good Hunting
Best regards
Bill
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Gefa
·It shows that the hand has very likely been on and off a couple of times.
I would not say that this is very likely a sign of frequent removal of the hand .. This damage arises during the removal of a very firm sitting hand... which was fixed for a long time.. not as a summation effect.. and could happen even in the hand of a skilled watchmaker....it's not a surprise that a watch in this age has been serviced...
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Fost
·If I was omega , and if I had ´suddently ´ found traces on my archives of the fameous orange hand,(suddenly because for many years there was never anything in the acteact about his orange hands..) I will have put it in the extract to increase the price of this piece among the collectors and just after , when the prices will have been high enough , I will have launch an Orange hand LE Speedmaster .... I am quite sure it will have been sold in a flash ...
Oh wait ...
Oh wait ...
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guaranteed.rohu
·all in all, it'd be interesting to see how much these 2 (bukowski and WoK) 'vintage ultramans' go for!
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guaranteed.rohu
·(and the one for sale on ebay from the forum member here)
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laser_jesus
·Jeeesus! not another Ultraman thread...
Completely new here. Seems like people don't like the ultramans. How come? This one is the vintage one too and not the 2018 one. I can understand if people are sick of the new one being shown everywhere.
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kov
·Completely new here. Seems like people don't like the ultramans.
Indeed, you've missed a couple of Vintage Ultraman discussions that went wrong. In general, people like Ultramans but to make the long story short we struggle to find a consensus on how to make sure about the authenticity of a vintage Ultraman. 😉