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New vintage Ultraman for sale

keywerd
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P PerJ
The original auction listing said 26.077.503 and they showed an extract saying that serial and mentioning the orange seconds hand. As Simon pointed out that the movement is 26.077.563 they removed the extract from the pictures and changed the serial on the listing to the correct one.

The most bothering thing here is that someone probably made a typo ordering the extract and that it still came back as an Ultraman. Either a huge coincidence or something else...

I don’t have a screenshot of the extract itself but it was there yesterday and it is mentioned in the printed catalogue saying 26.077.503 as a serial.

Edit: Found the extract on Bukowskis image bank.

The plot thickens... and so soon after an intense debate about this in another (now locked) ultraman thread. Now what are the odds of that...
 
tyrantlizardrex
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keywerd keywerd
The plot thickens... and so soon after an intense debate about this in another (now locked) ultraman thread. Now what are the odds of that...

I’m not sure what the debate is?

An auction house has put up a watch for sale as an “Ultraman”, with an extract that has a different serial number on.

If they want to sell it for top price as a legitimate “Ultraman”, surely the sensible thing is to withdraw it, get a correct extract (if it is an “Ultraman”), and relist it at a later date?

That’s kinda what logic dictates.

Sadly auction houses don’t run on logic, but bullshit.
 
simonsays
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I think it is clear that Omega do not have records of the second hand. The extract is based only on a photo of the watch and the serial in correct range. About 3000 Speedmasters could be in that range.

If you subsequently inspect the watch and find it does not have the characteristics of an Ultraman, then it is NOT an Ultraman.

Omega have issued several Extracts for watches that are not genuine, so the Extract is not a good validation of the watch. You need to use your eyes, get good provenance from the owner and document it. This skill is overlooked and underrated by so many people who just want a certificate.

The reliance on Extracts to decide whether you have a good watch is a disease as far as I am concerned. I can see with my eyes what is a good watch and what is not. A good mechanic does not buy a car based on it having an MOT certificate. Knowing the model and what is manipulated to increase value is essential research.

The watch in question could be genuine, but I doubt it. Not because of the Extract but because of the hand damage. Even if it is correct, you would need convincing provenance to be certain and document it.
 
padders
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It is this kind of thing which fuels the flames of the debates about how straight or dodgy the extract process is. It could of course be the case that both serials were for genuine Ultramen err Ultramans err whatever. If they were made sequentially and no one says they were, the gap suggests there were more than 50....
 
P
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simonsays simonsays
I think it is clear that Omega do not have records of the second hand. The extract is based only on a photo of the watch and the serial in correct range. About 3000 Speedmasters could be in that range.

If you subsequently inspect the watch and find it does not have the characteristics of an Ultraman, then it is NOT an Ultraman.

Omega have issued several Extracts for watches that are not genuine, so the Extract is not a good validation of the watch. You need to use your eyes, get good provenance from the owner and document it. This skill is overlooked and underrated by so many people who just want a certificate.

The reliance on Extracts to decide whether you have a good watch is a disease as far as I am concerned. I can see with my eyes what is a good watch and what is not. A good mechanic does not buy a car based on it having an MOT certificate. Knowing the model and what is manipulated to increase value is essential research.

The watch in question could be genuine, but I doubt it. Not because of the Extract but because of the hand damage. Even if it is correct, you would need convincing provenance to be certain and document it.
I agree on most points regarding extracts. The last part regarding the hand damage makes absolutely no sense. The hand looks as it should and as previously described by Archer it happens sometimes. Regardless if orange, Omega or fake. Hands get removed during service and when pressed back this can happen. It is not more likely to happen to a put-together Ultraman than it is to an authentic one.
 
simonsays
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I agree on most points regarding extracts. The last part regarding the hand damage makes absolutely no sense. The hand looks as it should and as previously described by Archer it happens sometimes. Regardless if orange, Omega or fake. Hands get removed during service and when pressed back this can happen. It is not more likely to happen to a put-together Ultraman than it is to an authentic one.

Yes it does happen sometimes, but not that often. We can debate how often till the cows come home, but from my experience as a collector there are huge amounts of watches from this period with no hand damage. The fact that this one has damage is a big problem because changing that hand is where the value is.
If you are happy to go with the damaged in service theory, well it is absolutely possible, but on balance of probability I would not feel comfortable with that.
 
eugeneandresson
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simonsays simonsays
The reliance on Extracts to decide whether you have a good watch is a disease as far as I am concerned.

If in most cases (orange hand aside) one simply furnishes a serial number, and gets back a document with information that verifies what the eyes can see, and what provenance the ears may have heard, why is this a disease?
 
tyrantlizardrex
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eugeneandresson eugeneandresson
If in most cases (orange hand aside) one simply furnishes a serial number, and gets back a document with information that verifies what the eyes can see, and what provenance the ears may have heard, why is this a disease?

I believe that what Simon is saying, is that just because a watch has an extract, doesn't mean it's a good watch.

The extract could say that it is "XYZ", but it could still be an utter dog.
 
simonsays
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And conversely, you may have a great watch, which for several possible reasons does not have an Extract. I think you would be a fool to right it off based on a piece of paper.
 
kov
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
I believe that what Simon is saying, is that just because a watch has an extract, doesn't mean it's a good watch.
simonsays simonsays
And conversely, you may have a great watch, which for several possible reasons does not have an Extract. I think you would be a fool to right it off based on a piece of paper.

We read it loud and clear, great stuff, all fine. Next.
 
tyrantlizardrex
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Good to note that this forum is becoming just as poisonous as some elements of this hobby.

Over and out.
 
Archer
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
I believe that what Simon is saying, is that just because a watch has an extract, doesn't mean it's a good watch.

The extract could say that it is "XYZ", but it could still be an utter dog.

An extract was never about it being a "good watch" in terms of being all correct or not being an "utter dog." It only gave information (as far as we thought) about what was in the archives, not about current condition. So even before the latest revelations about information being added regarding orange hands based on inspection or photos, it was never about claiming the watch was in good condition or original...
 
keywerd
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tyrantlizardrex tyrantlizardrex
I’m not sure what the debate is?

An auction house has put up a watch for sale as an “Ultraman”, with an extract that has a different serial number on.

If they want to sell it for top price as a legitimate “Ultraman”, surely the sensible thing is to withdraw it, get a correct extract (if it is an “Ultraman”), and relist it at a later date?

That’s kinda what logic dictates.

Sadly auction houses don’t run on logic, but bullshit.

I was more referring to the debate in the closed thread where Omega is less 'extracting' from the archives and more 'authenticating' based on pictures/in person. I know it falls within the known S/N range but what are the odds that both of these (..503 and ...563) were ultraman's...
 
BlueBoy
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padders padders
It is this kind of thing which fuels the flames of the debates about how straight or dodgy the extract process is. It could of course be the case that both serials were for genuine Ultramen err Ultramans err whatever. If they were made sequentially and no one says they were, the gap suggests there were more than 50....

I think the fundamental problem, is that the serial number is engraved on a part of the watch, which is easily changed.. So what is the Extract actually telling us?
 
sxl2004
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The extract tells you into which case/ reference number the movement has been mounted in and when and where it was delivered to.
Very helpful information.
 
eugeneandresson
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BlueBoy BlueBoy
I think the fundamental problem, is that the serial number is engraved on a part of the watch, which is easily changed..

What part of a watch can not be changed? 😀
 
Bill Sohne
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The watch is just serviced. Kind of healthy in a way that it is not 100% perfect when the rest of it also look used. Honest rather than fishy in my world.
I would agree... .its looks " more" honest.... and I would gravitate towards that .. .but I am not a premium buyer for these ......

Good Hunting

bill
 
Bill Sohne
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simonsays simonsays
Yes it does happen sometimes, but not that often. We can debate how often till the cows come home, but from my experience as a collector there are huge amounts of watches from this period with no hand damage. The fact that this one has damage is a big problem because changing that hand is where the value is.
If you are happy to go with the damaged in service theory, well it is absolutely possible, but on balance of probability I would not feel comfortable with that.

Hello @simonsays

First off, good morning. Before we start .. lets just agree to disagree...

You bring up your experience . "experience as a collector there are huge amounts of watches from this period with no hand damage."

I am also a collector and have seen cosmetic damage to hands and dials... on vintage watches... tail tale of a watch that a watch was used often and it owner would get the watch serviced periodically.

What type of watches do you look for ? Do you hunt out mint, NOS , minimal worn examples ? There is a good chance these watches didnot see a watchmaker too many time if at all.... so your sample ( "of huge amounts of watches... ") I would argue is not a random sampling of what is out there... .

I myself like to see honest worn watches... and I have wide latitude of what is acceptable to me as a collector.... My sample is not totally random either but I would think the sample I have seen would be more diverse...

Just like @Archer sample set would be skewed to what his customers bring into his shop.....

--- so now back to your last statement...

"The fact that this one has damage is a big problem because changing that hand is where the value is.
If you are happy to go with the damaged in service theory, well it is absolutely possible, but on balance of probability I would not feel comfortable with that."

We are all in agreement that the hand was taken off and put on a watch and paint flaked off in the process....

The impossible call is did the hand come off the same watch that it is now on ?...... no matter if it has a chip or not... bottom line is we will never know for sure with the info that we have in front of us.
From your statements above , if the hand was not damaged you would be ok with the info provided... right?

I think your issue is more of the condition of the hand as opposed to the authenticity of the watch as a Ultraman... .

That is perfectly fine as well..... And as @Archer pointed out , you vote with your money and you do not have to purchase the watch...

For me personally I already said I am not a buyer....

Good Hunting

Bill Sohne
 
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