Negotiate with AD via email?

cgaites · Mar 22, 2019

Evitzee
Think you are being unreasonable to think an AD is going to match a grey market price. 15% off is standard for most stock. A 1000 dollar spared is not unreasonable to me, but it is your money. Just remember, you never know how many hands your grey market watch went through or how it was handled. Some are never touched, some are buggered with.

Totally understand and appreciate your perspective. I’d much prefer to go through an authorized channel as well. Even at a somewhat highe cost. The gap was just too great in this case. The watch I was looking at was available from online dealers, with full manufacturers warranty for as low as ~$4600 shipped and after tax. The AD wasn’t willing to go below ~$5300 before taxes. After tax that is a gap of >$1000. I was willing to go up to $5K out the door.

Fully appreciate that AD’s have to make a margin. I’m a business person myself. This is just a case of the manufacturer pricing the watch too high above what the market will bear, and the AD getting caught in the middle. If the demand was there such that the watch was selling for close to MSRP (or even above as with some Rolex sport watches) in the open market I would have paid. Supply and demand are what they are.

pweingarten · Mar 22, 2019

Yeah, I agree. Can't expect the AD to match the price because he or she has much more overhead than the gray market people, I'm guessing. if you really want to give the AD the business, prepare to pay a little more!

BlackTalon · Mar 22, 2019

ADs have stores they need to maintain, which have lots of associated costs. Grey market dealers typically just have a web site. Grey market pricing is not 'market pricing' -- it is manufacturer's wholesale costs with a small middleman mark-up and the grey market seller's relatively small mark-up, as compared to the cost at an AD where is is manufacturer's wholesale cost + the ADs overhead costs and probably an 8-10% profit.

Obviously plenty of people may full MSRP at the OBs, and plenty pay within 15% of MSRP at the ADs. The % of those paying less through grey market is likely pretty low.

sturosen · Mar 22, 2019

Not on an Omega (though I can't see why it would be different - I certainly have received an AD's in-person Omega discount), but I have by SMS text negotiated a discount on an IWC. Discount against MSRP, not against grey market.

cgaites · Mar 22, 2019

BlackTalon
ADs have stores they need to maintain, which have lots of associated costs. Grey market dealers typically just have a web site. Grey market pricing is not 'market pricing' -- it is manufacturer's wholesale costs with a small middleman mark-up and the grey market seller's relatively small mark-up, as compared to the cost at an AD where is is manufacturer's wholesale cost + the ADs overhead costs and probably an 8-10% profit.

Obviously plenty of people may full MSRP at the OBs, and plenty pay within 15% of MSRP at the ADs. The % of those paying less through grey market is likely pretty low.

Respectfully, the market price is the average price at which willing sellers and willing buyers enter into a transactions. As a buyer, the sellers cost structure is not my concern. My only concern is whether or not the total value proposition on offer (price, quality, service, perceived risk, perceived exclusivity, etc.) is sufficiently compelling to get me to part with my cash. If a seller's business model does not allow for them to offer a total value proposition that is competitive in the market, all things considered, then that seller needs to modify his/her business model to beef up the value proposition. I don't need to subsidize his/her inefficiency. Note that I am not saying that this particular AD needs to modify his business model, only trying to dispel the notion that market price is necessarily linked directly to the underlying cost of production.

In my particular case, the sellers ask and my bid were too far apart to close a transaction. That's just business. I looked across the market and saw there were willing sellers in the market offering a comparable good (BNIB with full manufactures warranty) at a lower price. I gave the AD a chance to earn the business at a higher price in consideration of the superior service/experience available in his channel. However he declined for whatever reason. He's been in business for a long time, so I trust he knows what he's doing. I've been moderately financially successful in my life, so I trust that I too am a reasonable good steward of my own best interest. No feelings were hurt. I'll go back to the AD the next time I am in the market and see if we can do business then on a different piece.

The frustration I expressed is not with the AD, but rather with the generally "dirty" nature of the market for new luxury watches, and the difficulty of price discovery relative to many other markets. I'd be very curious to know what % of total sales go through online channels (grey market or otherwise) vs ADs vs OBs for mainstream luxury brands like Omega. I'd wager the bulk of volume goes through online channels today, but obviously that view reflects my own personal biases as you have the opposite opinion. If there is a good, public source of data I'd love to read it.

To close on a lighter note, I did end up purchasing the pre-owned piece I mentioned above this AM. Took it home, sized it to my wrist, and posted on the WRUW thread a little while ago. Very happy right now.

Good day all

rainking · Mar 22, 2019

cgaites
Respectfully, the market price is the average price at which willing sellers and willing buyers enter into a transactions. As a buyer, the sellers cost structure is not my concern. My only concern is whether or not the total value proposition on offer (price, quality, service, perceived risk, perceived exclusivity, etc.) is sufficiently compelling to get me to part with my cash. If a seller's business model does not allow for them to offer a total value proposition that is competitive in the market, all things considered, then that seller needs to modify his/her business model to beef up the value proposition. I don't need to subsidize his/her inefficiency. Note that I am not saying that this particular AD needs to modify his business model, only trying to dispel the notion that market price is necessarily linked directly to the underlying cost of production.

In my particular case, the sellers ask and my bid were too far apart to close a transaction. That's just business. I looked across the market and saw there were willing sellers in the market offering a comparable good (BNIB with full manufactures warranty) at a lower price. I gave the AD a chance to earn the business at a higher price in consideration of the superior service/experience available in his channel. However he declined for whatever reason. He's been in business for a long time, so I trust he knows what he's doing. I've been moderately financially successful in my life, so I trust that I too am a reasonable good steward of my own best interest. No feelings were hurt. I'll go back to the AD the next time I am in the market and see if we can do business then on a different piece.

The frustration I expressed is not with the AD, but rather with the generally "dirty" nature of the market for new luxury watches, and the difficulty of price discovery relative to many other markets. I'd be very curious to know what % of total sales go through online channels (grey market or otherwise) vs ADs vs OBs for mainstream luxury brands like Omega. I'd wager the bulk of volume goes through online channels today, but obviously that view reflects my own personal biases as you have the opposite opinion. If there is a good, public source of data I'd love to read it.

To close on a lighter note, I did end up purchasing the pre-owned piece I mentioned above this AM. Took it home, sized it to my wrist, and posted on the WRUW thread a little while ago. Very happy right now.

Good day all

I knew that was what was going to happen, barring a lucky/unusual outcome. ADs don't tend to offer 20-percent-plus discounts. And I'm totally with you. You did the only sensible thing, whether you had ended up buying the new one through the gray market or the used one you actually ended up with.

For whatever reason, there are people always on here who almost seem like they are ADs, offering up reasons you should be oh so scared of gray market purchases. The "arguments" are always the same: who knows what happened to that watch before you got it ... piece of mind ... what if there's something wrong with it ... etc etc. As I said the other day, it's over-thinkers gone wild. Sellers like mdgrwl and kringkily have sparkling reputations on these forums and have been around for quite some time (just to name a couple). If they have a new watch someone is after and that person still elects to buy it from the OB or AD instead ... I just can't fathom it. But hey, there are Porsche drivers paying $600 for new batteries installed by their local dealer. And paying $450 for oil changes. Because they need the "piece of mind," apparently. In reality, they are getting bent over threefold and accept it with a smile. When my battery dies, I go to Pep Boys and get a new one for about $130 and throw it in myself within three minutes. It's amazing how little some people actually know about certain things they are simultaneously willing to throw stupid dollars at.

texasmade · Mar 22, 2019

rainking
For whatever reason, there are people always on here who almost seem like they are ADs, offering up reasons you should be oh so scared of gray market purchases. The "arguments" are always the same: who knows what happened to that watch before you got it ... piece of mind ... what if there's something wrong with it ... etc etc. As I said the other day, it's over-thinkers gone wild. Sellers like mdgrwl and kringkily have sparkling reputations on these forums and have been around for quite some time (just to name a couple). If they have a new watch someone is after and that person still elects to buy it from the OB or AD instead ... I just can't fathom it. But hey, there are Porsche drivers paying $600 for new batteries installed by their local dealer. And paying $450 for oil changes. Because they need the "piece of mind," apparently. In reality, they are getting bent over threefold and accept it with a smile. When my battery dies, I go to Pep Boys and get a new one for about $130 and throw it in myself within three minutes. It's amazing how little some people actually know about certain things they are simultaneously willing to throw stupid dollars at.

In fairness to the Porsche people and the sky high oil change prices, a lot of times to maintain the warranty you need to get the service done at a dealership. That also helps on resale value because Porsche has records of every service performed.

BlackTalon · Mar 22, 2019

They pay that for the Porsche oil changes because oil changes are fuching hard to do in some of the newer models, and the owners are not DIY people. I don't think they like paying it, but they don't have other options. Even the indy shops charge close to dealership rates around here.

Batteries are another story. Some cars need to have the batteries 'programmed' for their car, so pulling one off the shelf at the local auto parts store is not always an option. And of course since the dealers know that, they make sure the owner squeals when a replacement is needed. On a side note, I was shopping for a replacement battery for my wife's Mazda, and the local stores are all up to $150-$160 these days. I went back home and started looking online for lower cost options, and to check Costco pricing. But before I pulled the trigger, I went back out and started digging around, and discovered the cells were very low. We had about a quart of distilled water, and I was able to fill half of the cells. Battery has been fine since (3+ weeks now, after it would not start the car twice).

x100 on Kringkily, as well as a couple other resellers who list on OF. That is how I have scored most of my watches, although with the #STs and #PCA there were no options other than MSRP for brand new.

cgaites · Mar 22, 2019

Ha! Porsche's and watches are quickly becoming the mid-life crisis cliche of my age group. My Porsche is water-cooled and my watches are Omegas, so at least I'm bucking the air-cooled/Rolex stereotype 😀

To be fair to (in warranty) Porsche owners, if you've ever tried to sell a Porsche private party then you know the value of having service records from a official service center when it comes to resale. Same reason I send my modern Omegas back to Omega for service. That service record and two year warranty more than pay for the cost difference. Also, have you seen the engine compartment of the new 992? No way your going to be able to work on one of those in your garage without a lift.

Now paying MSRP for a new, non-GT car? That's just ridiculous 😀

BlackTalon · Mar 22, 2019

No Rolexes here, but my Porsche is air-cooled... 'Course that's all they had when I bought it -- water-cooled 911s did not arrive for another two or three years. Not that I would have been able to afford one, either; my 911 was 9 years old when I bought it 😁

rainking · Mar 22, 2019

texasmade
In fairness to the Porsche people and the sky high oil change prices, a lot of times to maintain the warranty you need to get the service done at a dealership. That also helps on resale value because Porsche has records of every service performed.

No you don't. It is illegal for manufacturers to require routine service must be performed by dealers. As long as you get the needed services done and keep records of it, you're good for both your warranty and for resale. This is how bad information spreads like fire across the internet.

rainking · Mar 22, 2019

cgaites
Ha! Porsche's and watches are quickly becoming the mid-life crisis cliche of my age group. My Porsche is water-cooled and my watches are Omegas, so at least I'm bucking the air-cooled/Rolex stereotype 😀

To be fair to (in warranty) Porsche owners, if you've ever tried to sell a Porsche private party then you know the value of having service records from a official service center when it comes to resale. Same reason I send my modern Omegas back to Omega for service. That service record and two year warranty more than pay for the cost difference. Also, have you seen the engine compartment of the new 992? No way your going to be able to work on one of those in your garage without a lift.

Now paying MSRP for a new, non-GT car? That's just ridiculous 😀

I only use independent Porsche shops, and oil changes in my Cayman S cost me about $150 including the nine quarts of $13.50/quart oil I run (not Mobil 1). As for batteries, if some of the newer cars throw codes and need to be cleared with the tool, an independent is still going to be way cheaper. A co-worker just paid more than $600 to the dealer for a new battery. I explained to him--nicely--that basically he was an idiot. He won't make that mistake again.

BlackTalon · Mar 22, 2019

I believe the oil changes on the 997s and 991s are more complicated.

Interesting that your shop only charges $28.50 to change your oil (actually closer to $20 since the filter is $7-$8). With labor rates typically running $125 - $150/ hr at the indy shops these days (at least in my area), it costs more than $30 in labor just to get a car onto the lift and back down/ off again at the end. They are already losing money without taking into account the time needed to actually drain and refill the oil.

cgaites · Mar 22, 2019

rainking
I only use independent Porsche shops, and oil changes in my Cayman S cost me about $150 including the nine quarts of $13.50/quart oil I run (not Mobil 1). As for batteries, if some of the newer cars throw codes and need to be cleared with the tool, an independent is still going to be way cheaper. A co-worker just paid more than $600 to the dealer for a new battery. I explained to him--nicely--that basically he was an idiot. He won't make that mistake again.

I still have ~6 month remaining on my CPO warranty, so I still service mine at the dealer for anything major (e.g. high pressure fuel pump replacement). However, I've always performed the routine, uncovered maintenance (brake jobs, oil changes) on my own or with a respected independent. When it comes time to replace the clutch, I'll tackle that one myself if I haven't moved on to a new model by then. Of course I keep all the receipts and only use OEM parts just in case I do decide to sell.

The above said, we're getting way off topic. Thanks everyone for their help with my watch purchase negotiation!

Evitzee · Mar 22, 2019

Well, here we go off into the weeds discussing oil changes in a Porsche.

MRC · Mar 22, 2019

Evitzee
Well, here we go off into the weeds discussing oil changes in a Porsche.

I have been into the weeds when the car I was following had the oil drain plug fall out after (presumably) an oil change. We were sponsored, supplied and stickered by Shell but I used what my engine-builder recommended. Ahem, Duckhams, poured from a Shell can of course.

BlackTalon · Mar 22, 2019

Evitzee
Well, here we go off into the weeds discussing oil changes in a Porsche.

Weeds? More like gravel trap or tire wall 😁

rainking · Mar 22, 2019

BlackTalon
I believe the oil changes on the 997s and 991s are more complicated.

Interesting that your shop only charges $28.50 to change your oil (actually closer to $20 since the filter is $7-$8). With labor rates typically running $125 - $150/ hr at the indy shops these days (at least in my area), it costs more than $30 in labor just to get a car onto the lift and back down/ off again at the end. They are already losing money without taking into account the time needed to actually drain and refill the oil.

Maybe it's $170, I don't remember exactly. The point is, it's substantially cheaper than paying dealer rates for routine maintenance ... but hey, if people want to light money on fire for no reason while supporting a dealer's after-sales division, by all means enjoy. But like I said, to me it's similar to people buying Omega's from OBs/ADs when the very same watch is available from reputable independent sellers at significant discount. Some people think they are somehow getting something better from the official channel even though it is nonsense.

Negotiate with AD via email?

cgaites

pweingarten

BlackTalon

sturosen

cgaites

rainking

texasmade

BlackTalon

cgaites

BlackTalon

rainking

rainking

BlackTalon

cgaites

Evitzee

MRC

BlackTalon

rainking

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