Need help identifying a model, doesn't match speedmaster101 guides

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

Hi all

I recently picked up a very nice condition Speedmaster (i've got a mark ii racing dial from the late 60s, a gold filled seamaster, and a modern SMP -- this is my first original-style Speedie). I'm going to take it to my watchmaker for a service, but I was hoping to understand what model it is. I was pretty sure it's a 105.012, but the speedmaster101 website says pretty unequivocally that this model always has "Professional" on the dial, which this one doesn't. I can't find a watch ref that has:

- Curved lugs
- Swiss Made T dial
- No "Professional" on the dial

Does anyone have an idea which ref this is? It seems unlikely that a service dial would go back to an older style, since all the watches following had "Professional" on the dial.

Thanks in advance for any help!

Phil

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

I think I've answered my own question. In reading the Chuck Maddox article linked here:
http://forums.watchuseek.com/f45/speedmaster-article-chuck-maddox-iw-magazine-dec-2007-a-215587.html

He says that early 105.012's were made with both dials.

"In summary, originally, 105.003’s all have dials without “PROFESSIONAL,” and the plain 19 mm lugged case. The 105.012 can have either dial and the twisted lug 20 mm asymmetrical case, but one should scrutinize the serial number and year of production on the caseback carefully when considering the purchase of the 105.012 model: If the 105.012 you’re looking at is a -63 or -64 with a non Professional dial, it’s probably fine, and with a 105.012- 65 either dial is correct, but a Pro dial on a 1964 or earlier model should be viewed with caution."

omegastar · Jan 18, 2017

I am no expert, but I think that dial comes from a 105.003.
Nice dial, anyway,

S.Song · Jan 18, 2017

Thats news to me, never knew 105012s could come with no professional dials, still don't think so.

Whats the serial anyway?

S.Song · Jan 18, 2017

Forgot to mention, nice watch regardless 😉

BASE1000 · Jan 18, 2017

Caseback and pushers look rather like a 145.012 than a 105.012 to me. The dial is wrong here, but worth more than a 145.012 dial so it is a good deal you need only to find the correct dial which comes up from time to time.

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

eddieskl
Thats news to me, never knew 105012s could come with no professional dials, still don't think so.

Whats the serial anyway?

I don't know. I'll have it opened up by my watchmaker and figure out what model the caseback says, and what the movement serial is.

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

BASE1000
Caseback and pushers look rather like a 145.012 than a 105.012 to me. The dial is wrong here, but worth more than a 145.012 dial so it is a good deal you need only to find the correct dial which comes up from time to time.

When measuring a pusher to understand if it it short v. long, is it just the larger part of the pusher, or the whole length to the case itself? It looks like these pushers (the non-stem part of the pusher) is 3mm or less, which is the 'short' pusher. I think.

tempusfugit861 · Jan 18, 2017

None of the current wisdom on 105.012 indicates that the no-pro dial can be correct. It needs further investigation, and finding the correct dial will not be a walk in the park, but the dial included should cover the cost.

Spacefruit · Jan 18, 2017

Let's see the basics:
Case reference in the back
Then
Serial on the movement.

My assessment is that's a 105.003 dial. A nice one and worth a lot in today's market.

What the rest iis, has to be speculation. I have seen watches looking like this that contain an 861 movement. Probably not the case here, but until it's opened we can only guess.

So my guess is it is a re cased 105.003. Only an extract will tell us.

Could be a Frank too.

Get the numbers before we all go mad

Davidt · Jan 18, 2017

Certainly a 105.003 dial, with what looks like a 145.012 case.

Hopefully the movement number matches one of the above. I'd be very tempted to get an extract to find out what reference is correct for the movement and try to restore to that baseline.

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

So I'm back from the watchmaker. The caseback identifies the watch as an 145.012-67. Movement is cal 321. Serial is 2655XXXX.

The watchmaker suggested keeping the watch as-is because the patina is so nice on the dial, but if I can find a similarly patina'd correct dial and swap it out at a net plus financially, I'd consider that path.

jimmyd13 · Jan 18, 2017

105.003 recased in the mid-late 60s by some well meaning omega-bod? Only really commenting to see what the answer is when it goes for service.

Spacefruit · Jan 18, 2017

Well the serial fits late sixties and is higher than any 105.003 I have seen. Fits perfectly to a 145.012

We need an extract to be sure. Entirely possible an early owner simply preferred the early dial or swapped at service at a time when people did not care as much.

Or it's a put together with multiple sources. The simple answer would be it's just the dial that's changed.

pfibiger · Jan 18, 2017

Spacefruit
Well the serial fits late sixties and is higher than any 106.003 I have seen. Fits perfectly to a 145.012

We need an extract to be sure. Entirely possible an early owner simply preferred the early dial or swapped at service at a time when people did not care as much.

Or it's a put together with multiple sources. The simple answer would be it's just the dial that's changed.

Spacefruit,

Thanks for all the help! I'm going to find a friend in Canada who can order the extract for me, it appears they won't let me do it in the US. If anyone has a line on where I might find a period correct dial for the watch, I'd love a pointer. I'll keep my eye on the forum classifieds.

Thanks everyone!
Phil

Davidt · Jan 18, 2017

I'd still get an extract, but it does suggest its a 145.012-67 (or possibly a -68) with an earlier dial.

Incidentally ive got a 145.022-68 with a 26,55xxxx (cal 861).

abrod520 · Jan 18, 2017

pfibiger
I can find a similarly patina'd correct dial and swap it out at a net plus financially, I'd consider that path.

It may take some time to find a worthy dial with the same attractive patina, but you will almost certainly come out on top financially.

pfibiger · Mar 9, 2017

I finally got my extract from the archives and wanted to follow up on the thread in case anyone was curious. It, as expected, doesn't say anything about the dial. I'm still planning to swap out with a correct 145.012 dial when I can line up a dial and the work to be done.

Type: Wristwatch
Model: Speedmaster Professional Moonwatch
Calibre: 321 (manual-winding chronograph with 30-minute and 12-hour recorders)
Metal: Stainless steel
Bracelet: Not mentioned
Watch ref: ST 145.012
Dia: Black with luminous indexes
Production: Nov 22, 1968
Delivered to: Navy, Army, and Air Force Institutes (NAAFI)

pfibiger · Mar 9, 2017

The watchmaker (a well regarded watchmaker at Orlando Watch Co) was convinced the dial was original, he said he saw no significant tool marks suggesting any major work). I'm still looking to make it 'correct' but thought it was an interesting note.

Kmart · Mar 9, 2017

At least you can sell your 105.003 dial whenever you come across a nice 145.012 dial (and probably make a little bit of money back too!).

Need help identifying a model, doesn't match speedmaster101 guides

pfibiger

pfibiger

omegastar

S.Song

S.Song

BASE1000

pfibiger

pfibiger

tempusfugit861

Spacefruit

Davidt

pfibiger

jimmyd13

Spacefruit

pfibiger

Davidt

abrod520

pfibiger

pfibiger

Kmart

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