My wife asked me how my day has gone.

JwRosenthal · Nov 1, 2020

Archer
Sounds like the second headline would be the accurate one though...

It really is a matter of perspective- like patina vs damage.
We can view this negatively in that they fumbled around and wasted time and money until they finally brought in someone who knew what they were doing (incompetence), or they could portray the story with a positive perspective: that the craft of clockmaking is highly specialized and in our modern era of high tech- it takes a veteran craftsman to lend a keen eye and experience to bring something wonderful back to life.
I think we are in an era of “gotcha” journalism- it’s what people want. Scandals and mismanagement garner far more “hits” than a feel good story about a master clock-maker using his skills to aid in a civic endeavor.

STANDY · Nov 1, 2020

Canuck
The now operating clock did appear in a 30-second TV news item, twice on Friday. It was tied in with the “set your clocks back one hour” news item. A brief mention was made referring to the fact that a local “expert” (moi) was brought in to bring the clock back to operating condition.

With today’s journalist’s surprised it wasn’t “Old timer turns back time on old Clock ”

Archer · Nov 1, 2020

JwRosenthal
It really is a matter of perspective- like patina vs damage.
We can view this negatively in that they fumbled around and wasted time and money until they finally brought in someone who knew what they were doing (incompetence), or they could portray the story with a positive perspective: that the craft of clockmaking is highly specialized and in our modern era of high tech- it takes a veteran craftsman to lend a keen eye and experience to bring something wonderful back to life.
I think we are in an era of “gotcha” journalism- it’s what people want. Scandals and mismanagement garner far more “hits” than a feel good story about a master clock-maker using his skills to aid in a civic endeavor.

To me it's not a choice between portraying this as some great civic effort, or as a failure of governance. In reality it's both. The city trusted some specialized place to do this work, and they didn't do their job, and a local guy fixed it. Why did this happen? Likely because someone at the city didn't do their research.

Like it or not, many instances of government incompetence would never come to light if it weren't for the news media. If you consider this "gotcha" journalism, that's certainly your view. To me it's holding government to account for how they spend taxpayer money. I know it's the current thing to dump on the news media, and yes sometimes it's warranted. But again they play an important role no matter how much some want to minimize it.

Canuck · Nov 1, 2020

When this whole project started rolling back in 2017, I was asked if I was interested in being responsible for removing the clock and the dials, and doing the necessary work on them. Knowing how a previous clock tech nearly went bankrupt over his dealings with the city and their tower clock, I turned them down. You might say I am partly responsible for the clock project having evolved the way it did. Having turned them down. The people that brought the clock to where it was when I was called the second time, did the best they could. I was quite happy to leave the heavy work to others, and to limit my participation to a “mop up” exercise. When they call me out of desperation, I don’t need to sign any contracts! 😁 ::rimshot::

BlackTalon · Nov 1, 2020

Canuck
There was a grand soirée, open bar, catered, and recipients were given 90 seconds to give a presentation.

That definitely helps...

JwRosenthal · Nov 1, 2020

Archer
To me it's not a choice between portraying this as some great civic effort, or as a failure of governance. In reality it's both. The city trusted some specialized place to do this work, and they didn't do their job, and a local guy fixed it. Why did this happen? Likely because someone at the city didn't do their research.

Like it or not, many instances of government incompetence would never come to light if it weren't for the news media. If you consider this "gotcha" journalism, that's certainly your view. To me it's holding government to account for how they spend taxpayer money. I know it's the current thing to dump on the news media, and yes sometimes it's warranted. But again they play an important role no matter how much some want to minimize it.

Completely agree about the responsibility of the media- but having worked with many photo-journalists from some of the largest news outlets, I can tell you from their experience- the media is now driven by “hits”, and serious reporting is not valued-it doesn’t sell advertising (and that’s not on the journalists- that’s on the owners of the media outlets).
This story could have a complete picture of project mismanagement followed by local man saves the day- but it’s not as sexy as as just reporting the negative side.
I’m 100% behind a free press (even if I don’t like what they are reporting) and the value of the work they do- my indictment isn’t on them- it’s on the consumers and their appetite for junk and commentary and not investigative reporting.

A counter-point to this situation being a matter of government incompetence is that it may be a result of how the system for government contracts are awarded. I don’t know how the bid process works with a local government in Canada, nor do I know the particulars of this situation, but on the US Federal level, situations like this can go very badly by no fault of the organization, rather because of an inherently difficult process of contract policy.
If this were a US federal property, the restoration of the clock would have been charged to a contract manager within the agency. This contract manager may be an engineer or architect, but clockmaking is most likely not their speciality. They reach out to the previous clockmaker who had worked on the clock before and he declines the offer (they could have constructed a no-bid contract based on sole-source justification).
So the next step is to create a scope of work put the project out for bid. The parameters of the contract are structured to yield an outcome with milestones, but rarely are they written specifically to process (unless the PM has specific knowledge of the process).
The bid is then put out publicly (or to a minimum of 3 vendors who can meet the requirements of the contract), and the lowest bidder is awarded- regardless of if one of the two other bidders may have previous experience with the agency/clock. Even if the bid comes in at one penny lower, the lowest bidder is awarded the contract.
I have seen countless projects go into litigation because the vendor screwed up, and the agency had no control over the award- they were the lowest bidder.
I’m not excusing what may or may not have happened here, but as a 20 year government employee who takes great pride in his work- I get chuffed when people are quick to point to waste, fraud and abuse before understanding all of the facts. The phrase “close enough for government work” is one that can make me blow a gasket.

Archer · Nov 1, 2020

JwRosenthal
A counter-point to this situation being a matter of government incompetence is that it may be a result of how the system for government contracts are awarded.

I have seen countless projects go into litigation because the vendor screwed up, and the agency had no control over the award- they were the lowest bidder.

Trust me I have a lot of experience negotiating contracts for services and machinery purchases in the private sector. I understand the "rules" and the purchasing people would hate to see me coming, because they knew I wasn't going to let them pick the lowest bidder. I didn't always get my way, but often I did, because I could make an argument why a specific supplier or contractor was the better choice, even though they were not the cheapest.

I know that isn't an option in government, but IMO that is in fact government incompetence. It's legislation born out of "cutting waste" that creates waste. There are very few times in my work or private life where picking the lowest bidder was the best option, and the idea that it always is is somewhat idiotic. Quality work done right the first time is a more efficient use of money in my books, so on that we certainly agree.

JwRosenthal · Nov 1, 2020

Archer
Trust me I have a lot of experience negotiating contracts for services and machinery purchases in the private sector. I understand the "rules" and the purchasing people would hate to see me coming, because they knew I wasn't going to let them pick the lowest bidder. I didn't always get my way, but often I did, because I could make an argument why a specific supplier or contractor was the better choice, even though they were not the cheapest.

I know that isn't an option in government, but IMO that is in fact government incompetence. It's legislation born out of "cutting waste" that creates waste. There are very few times in my work or private life where picking the lowest bidder was the best option, and the idea that it always is is somewhat idiotic. Quality work done right the first time is a more efficient use of money in my books, so on that we certainly agree.

Trust me- those of us in government don’t like it either. We have had vendors we used for years with whom we have incredible relationships beat out on a procurement bid by a fly-by-night, and it’s always cost us more in the end.

BlackTalon · Nov 1, 2020

JwRosenthal
Trust me- those of us in government don’t like it either. We have had vendors we used for years with whom we have incredible relationships beat out on a procurement bid by a fly-by-night, and it’s always cost us more in the end.

It usually costs the 'fly by nighter' too, because they usually have no clue about the amount of lost time they will have trying to get the project started. We are seeing many projects not begin construction until 6-12 months after award. The poor contractors get hammered with piles and piles of spent manhours on meetings, paperwork, red tape, conflicts between client and building tenant, etc. They may have priced the job adequately for the construction, but some find themselves losing tens of hundreds of thousands of dollars because of this -- and they need to make that up somehow so they go with less qualified subcontractors and/ or look for ways to shave costs. And sometimes the GCs are well-versed in this, but bring aboard subcontractors they do not fully inform; the GC wins the job due to lower pricing, and the poor sub gets driven out of business or close to it. There are a couple of gov't facilities with very high security in our area where I have seen this happen. The poor subs were just raw meat for the GC, and the gov't people were happy to say the job was delivered under budget.

Canuck · Nov 1, 2020

In 1992, the first time I worked on this clock, I was told that City Hall had approached a number of “clock people”, (probably out of the Yellow Pages)when the clock quit. Few were interested, but one guy did go to see the clock. The minute he walked into the clock room to see the clock, he told them that he wouldn’t know where to start. He was dismissed forthwith!

This clock has a double three-legged gravity escapement, the like of which there are few in Canada. Owing to the trouble they were having to find someone to work on it, a friend who works at City Hall suggested they call me because of my heavy involvement in our city’s only other tower clock. A 1905 Howard “round top” which several of us plied our talents on, to restore and fit into an historically significant cupola.

I had seen the City Hall clock, and I knew about the escapement. When they phoned, I said l’d be there! Gulp! I knew SBA about double three-legged gravity escapements. But I have a book from 1933 by an English author name of Willis Millham. He devoted several pages to detailing how this escapement functions. Voila! When two of us went to see the clock, I was the reigning local expert on this escapement, and I saw the trouble within a minute. Well, actually, two troubles. Naturally, we got the job and dispatched it forthwith. They did ask for an estimate, so I gave them one for just under 10 grand. No problem! On three occasions since then I have made myself available to do what is necessary. On each occasion, it was as a result of their phone calls.

But to become a card carrying tower clock repair person, they need a file on hand showing my curriculum vitae. Yah, right! Who taught me to repair tower clocks. Do I have a diploma from a recognized institution? How many years of study? What were my grades? Provide a list of my accomplishments. How many customers can I refer them to? How much insurance do I have? And all the other customary questions, excluding the colour of my shorts! But where is there an institution teaching folks how to identify and solve numerous problems that were overlooked by others, on a 110 year old clock?

I was on my way downtown to set the Howard tower clock I maintain, to MST. I checked THE Seth Thomas this morning at 10:00 MST, and it was right on, and striking nicely.

ahsposo · Nov 1, 2020

Let's celebrate with one of my favorite bands; from Athens, GA, The Swimming Pool Qs

Canuck · Nov 14, 2020

Well, it was three weeks ago yesterday (Friday 13th) that I set the clock going after I worked my magic on it. On Nov. 8, It was purposely halted for a few hours after running for 15 days because a problem was detected in one of the four dial trains (four dials, four sets of hands). One dial train was causing drag on the whole clock. I was not involved in this procedure. The clock was set running again on Sunday, Nov. 8, and is running beautifully as I write this. My contact at City Hall tells me that regulating it has been a bit of a problem. Three years ago when the project started, some duffus took the temperature compensating pendulum (it weighs 175 pounds) apart, and it was re-assembled incorrectly (not by me).

Canuck · Dec 26, 2020

Boxing Day. I got a call from the custodian of our City Hall Seth Thomas 16A tower clock. He needed to make an adjustment, and asked if I could attend. Of Course! This time I took a proper camera. The clock now runs well, and is within 1 minute per week. Pretty good for a 110 year-old clock.

wagudc · Dec 26, 2020

Canuck
Boxing Day. I got a call from the custodian of our City Hall Seth Thomas 16A tower clock. He needed to make an adjustment, and asked if I could attend. Of Course! This time I took a proper camera. The clock now runs well, and is within 1 minute per week. Pretty good for a 110 year-old clock.

Wow, that is magnificent! Thanks for sharing the photos and your story! So glad it is up and running!

Walrus · Dec 26, 2020

This was a really cool thread for the Canuck to play a part in a historical piece like that is way cool but after reading all this I fear someday soon all towns will have some apple like device telling time on Main Street. The itownwatch

Canuck · Dec 26, 2020

Walrus
This was a really cool thread for the Canuck to play a part in a historical piece like that is way cool but after reading all this I fear someday soon all towns will have some apple like device telling time on Main Street. The itownwatch

On the topic of what passes as a “civic” clock in the 21st century. I have been involved with our city’s two “civic” clocks (both early 20th century tower clocks) now for close to 29 years. About 10 years ago, the city built a modern skate park in the downtown area, and installed a stupid digital electronic clock atop a tall obelisk thing. It cost 1 million dollars, plus, to buy and install! I cobbled the attached picture of it, off the Internet. Some time after they installed it, they phoned me and asked if I was available to maintain it! FLAT OUT NO! As you may see in the picture, AS USUAL the bloody thing isn’t working! Meantime, our two mechanical tower clocks which are 115 and 120 years old, soldier on! THAT, my friends, is where this is heading. Moreover, what will happen to these mechanical marvels when people like me are dead and gone?

BlackTalon · Dec 26, 2020

Maybe they just need to reboot it, or reload the operating system. 😉

You can probably maintain it remotely, from the comfort of your living room. Plus they will probably pay IT repair people 10x what they will pay people who fix mechanical things.

Walrus · Dec 26, 2020

Canuck
On the topic of what passes as a “civic” clock in the 21st century. I have been involved with our city’s two “civic” clocks (both early 20th century tower clocks) now for close to 29 years. About 10 years ago, the city built a modern skate park in the downtown area, and installed a stupid digital electronic clock atop a tall obelisk thing. It cost 1 million dollars, plus, to buy and install! I cobbled the attached picture of it, off the Internet. Some time after they installed it, they phoned me and asked if I was available to maintain it! FLAT OUT NO! As you may see in the picture, AS USUAL the bloody thing isn’t working! Meantime, our two mechanical tower clocks which are 115 and 120 years old, soldier on! THAT, my friends, is where this is heading. Moreover, what will happen to these mechanical marvels when people like me are dead and gone?

Same with church bells. I have volunteered at several churches over the years usually just doing lawn work or painting etc. last year the church I worked in was built in 1900. They can’t afford the upkeep on the bells and installed an electronic device that makes the bell sound. Kinda sad to see that happening all over

Canuck · Dec 26, 2020

Walrus
Same with church bells. I have volunteered at several churches over the years usually just doing lawn work or painting etc. last year the church I worked in was built in 1900. They can’t afford the upkeep on the bells and installed an electronic device that makes the bell sound. Kinda sad to see that happening all over

The 1,200-pound bell in our City Hall had, after over 100 years, begun to shake the masonry apart. A common problem wherever in the world large bells are in use. The cupola that houses our clock was completely dismantled, and new sandstone installed where necessary. I was talking to the guy who looks after the tower clock. During the restoration of the building, masons had to be brought from Eastern Europe, because they couldn’t find the skills, locally. Bricklayers, yes, but not stone masons.

BlackTalon · Dec 26, 2020

That is both interesting and odd. There are stonemasons around in North America that know about solid masonry construction. They may charge and arm and a leg to work on the projects though, so maybe that is why they tapped an eastern-European contractor.