My Early Seamaster 120 Divers. What to look for and what to avoid.

wcm82 · Oct 30, 2020

JwRosenthal
Franken or not- has anyone seen a bezel (non Omega) that actually fits these watches? Mine is fine but I’m always paranoid about what I would do if I lost a bezel.
We don’t need to get into the whole fake parts thing- this is a NLA part from Omega so we are left to our own devices. If Omega didn’t have service bezels for Speedies, we see a clamor for a replacement elsewhere.

I took the measurements with a micrometer and found a random dive bezel from the 70's on ebay for $30 and it snapped right on but it doesnt spin. It will have to do until I find a proper replacement eventually...

JwRosenthal · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Coming from someone who has been looking for a bezel for a watch I inherited for 6+ months now.. I can tell you that the ladies size bezels show up from time to time however the full-size version do not. There is one on ebay right now that is literally broken at the pip with a case, stem and crown for $1300 USD but I wouldn't even consider that one. Even if you could get it laser welded, according to quite a few posts it would likely break again on installation.

If you do decide to go the route of a bezel-less watch just make sure to get the measurements on any bezel before you buy it. It will also need the bezel spring to hold it onto the case. Not sure if the spring is available, I've been unable to find an omega part number for it.

As for the aftermarket kits - they show up all the time on ebay and etsy, they will not part with just the bezel (I asked out of curiosity). Unfortunately if you do go this route you're encouraging the creation of black-market parts... which hurts this hobby (just my humble opinion). The amount of fake kits out there is quite unfortunate, I imagine there are quite a few folks walking around thinking they have a legit watch only to have been duped.

Agree, it’s a touchy subject and we have discussed it to death in various guises.
I’m not even talking about one of those fake bezels made to look like a real one (which they don’t- you can always tell). I am thinking about a Seiko bezel, or one stolen off of a cheap 60’s diver, or even a modern acrylic bezel like the kinda you can get from the mod-shops. If I lost my bezel, of course an original would be the one I wanted. Would be nice to know though if there was a temporary solution that looked decent- despite not being correct.

uwsearch · Oct 30, 2020

hmmmcamu
just my 2 cents .. CASE BACK ... original case ref# is scratched off ... in its place a hand scribbled replacement for the case ref# ... food for thought ...

Caseback is original and that was a common practice to change the reference number in the Caseback when they ran out of stock...

kaplan · Oct 30, 2020

I wholeheartedly agree with the ickiness of creating actual/intentful/explicit Frankestein's/Fake's - I believe these watches are a part of history now, and there's a responsibility to preserve them, that's why when I end up buying an actually good Omega, I don't use it and store it, for this stupid reason, I try to buy beat up watches for cheaper that I can actually use - but if it's not possible to restore a watch, you might as well use an aftermarket part, I don't really believe it promotes fakes either, since all the ones I come across are generic, they don't match the font or the style, even the color (I want to get a blue one for example, but the ones marketed as blue are actually more navy-ish)

I couldn't find a parts list for a complete Speedmaster 120 - I really want to see what kind of a construct the bezel is, I suspect it's like this:

- but I can't asses whether there's a tension ring too inside the bezel or not

The aftermarket ones for sale on eBay seem to be just the plastic parts, and not containing the steel

TL;DR: A lot of aftermarket "Bezel Insert"s marketed, but none actual "Bezel"s

If I got the watch, I'd 3d-print a bezel and attach a bezel insert on it, this way it'll be mine, and when/if it drops, I can just repeat the process

If you guys can't see anything wrong with this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-OM...579918?hash=item3433c0e8ce:g:ds0AAOSwhSNfk291 - I'll probably attempt it - I can only see some possible base surface cracks around the crystal, apart from the funky model number approach

wcm82 · Oct 30, 2020

JwRosenthal
Agree, it’s a touchy subject and we have discussed it to death in various guises.
I’m not even talking about one of those fake bezels made to look like a real one (which they don’t- you can always tell). I am thinking about a Seiko bezel, or one stolen off of a cheap 60’s diver, or even a modern acrylic bezel like the kinda you can get from the mod-shops. If I lost my bezel, of course an original would be the one I wanted. Would be nice to know though if there was a temporary solution that looked decent- despite not being correct.

Here is my 135.027 (it's by no means a museum piece lol) with the "franken-bezel" if you're curious. No clue where the bezel came from, the posting on ebay was for a "early 70's skin diver bezel". I think everything else is correct, hands could use a refresh but I gather that is kind of frowned upon? If anyone has the part number for the sweep hand I would be very grateful. I gather not all of the SM 120's came with a white sweep hand?

I had to source a bracelet (thanks OF!), NOS Omega crystal and of course the bezel search is ongoing. I don't want to ever sell it as it has sentimental meaning to me, if the bezel search takes years that's fine with me. I figured this way at least the case is more protected from bumps and dings along the way.

hmmmcamu · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Here is my 135.027 (it's by no means a museum piece lol) with the "franken-bezel" if you're curious. No clue where the bezel came from, the posting on ebay was for a "early 70's skin diver bezel". I think everything else is correct, hands could use a refresh but I gather that is kind of frowned upon? If anyone has the part number for the sweep hand I would be very grateful. I gather not all of the SM 120's came with a white sweep hand?

I had to source a bracelet (thanks OF!), NOS Omega crystal and of course the bezel search is ongoing. I don't want to ever sell it as it has sentimental meaning to me, if the bezel search takes years that's fine with me. I figured this way at least the case is more protected from bumps and dings along the way.

I think I saw a GREEN bezel on eBay i believe it is OEM

kaplan · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Here is my 135.027 (it's by no means a museum piece lol) with the "franken-bezel" if you're curious. No clue where the bezel came from, the posting on ebay was for a "early 70's skin diver bezel". I think everything else is correct, hands could use a refresh but I gather that is kind of frowned upon? If anyone has the part number for the sweep hand I would be very grateful. I gather not all of the SM 120's came with a white sweep hand?

I had to source a bracelet (thanks OF!), NOS Omega crystal and of course the bezel search is ongoing. I don't want to ever sell it as it has sentimental meaning to me, if the bezel search takes years that's fine with me. I figured this way at least the case is more protected from bumps and dings along the way.

Thanks for sharing it, nice to see how navy looks

This is a gold seconds hand: https://www.ebay.com/itm/OMEGA-hand...790320?hash=item1cf1dbae30:g:oocAAOSw-u9fSgsX - I think it would look interesting on your watch, silver ones are hard to come by but they come up, it's a big calibre family and the hands fit each other - so I'd just start with a simple silver replacement if I were you, that one looks too thin - I can measure how long this specific seconds hand is, if you pm me, it might be short for the Seamaster 120

I saw the green bezel on eBay too, seems very cheap too, but after seeing all the fake parts, I honestly wouldn't be able to buy it - I guess from the diameter, since it's for a ladies one, the price is normal

X350 XJR · Oct 30, 2020

The SM 120 bezel is a one piece affair, made from anodized aluminum, there is no insert, the silver print is the aluminum base from under the black anodized finish. It is attached with a very simple wire retaining ring.

kaplan · Oct 30, 2020

FYI, this might be a Ladies 120 bezel?: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Om...-Insert-Vintage-Omega-Watch-Part/174294439895 - If it is, and if anyone is looking for one, seems like an approachable price

For the mens version, I wonder if any other Omega bezel is remotely compatible? Like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Omega-Speedmaster-Moonwatch-37mm-Tachymetre-Bezel-ORIGINAL/184378975793

W wcm82
I took the measurements with a micrometer and found a random dive bezel from the 70's on ebay for $30 and it snapped right on but it doesnt spin. It will have to do until I find a proper replacement eventually...

What was the measurements?

JwRosenthal · Oct 30, 2020

kaplan
FYI, this might be a Ladies 120 bezel?: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Om...-Insert-Vintage-Omega-Watch-Part/174294439895 - If it is, and if anyone is looking for one, seems like an approachable price

For the mens version, I wonder if any other Omega bezel is remotely compatible? Like this one: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Omega-Speedmaster-Moonwatch-37mm-Tachymetre-Bezel-ORIGINAL/184378975793

What was the measurements?

That eBay bezel isn’t for a 120.

And no, the Speedy bezel isn’t the right design (non-rotating) and is way too large.

kaplan · Oct 30, 2020

Phew that was a brutal auction, why people pay so high on eBay is beyond me, up until 1 minute left it was $290 and mine (with 560 max, which is my I really want it price), in that last minute it jumped to $700 - ones with bezels can be found around 800's - anyway, it was a bitter end to my quest 😀

I'll be on the watch and hopefully join the ranks one day

Edit: Thinking about it now, it'll probably sell on Reddit for 2.5X the price with a makeshift bezel, as far as my limited interaction with vintage watches, flipping and people over-paying extreme amounts seem to be the drive

JwRosenthal · Oct 30, 2020

kaplan
Phew that was a brutal auction, why people pay so high on eBay is beyond me, up until 1 minute left it was $290 and mine (with 560 max, which is my I really want it price), in that last minute it jumped to $700 - ones with bezels can be found around 800's - anyway, it was a bitter end to my quest 😀

I'll be on the watch and hopefully join the ranks one day

Edit: Thinking about it now, it'll probably sell on Reddit for 2.5X the price with a makeshift bezel, as far as my limited interaction with vintage watches, flipping and people over-paying extreme amounts seem to be the drive

Ended auction page here for posterity

If that one had the bezel it would have gone for twice if not more.
The days of $900 SM120’s is gone. Finding a real one in decent shape, with attractive lume for under $1.5k is a challenge- if not unheard of lately.

wcm82 · Oct 30, 2020

Hah yeah the lume is a big part of it, mine is pretty bad, the watch didn't have a crystal so I am sure that didn't help things. Good luck with your search Kaplan!

On a side note I didn't realize my arm was that hairy until looking at the photo on here lol

JwRosenthal · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Hah yeah the lume is a big part of it, mine is pretty bad, the watch didn't have a crystal so I am sure that didn't help things. Good luck with your search Kaplan!

On a side note I didn't realize my arm was that hairy until looking at the photo on here lol

The lume and dial condition is the make or break for me. Hands I can have relumed, but if the dial is shoddy, or lume dark and ashy- I don’t bother unless it’s for parts watch money- and I need the parts.
The one that just sold is only valuable to someone who will either wear it that way, has a spare bezel, or wanted it for the parts (the dial was nice). Otherwise- your SOL. Anyone who gets one of these and thinks they can find a bezel is delusional. They are not out there, nobody is selling- it ain’t gonna happen. If one pops up on eBay, it will go for serious money unless it totally goes under the radar (and that doesn’t happen much anyomore) in the 2 years I have actively been following the 120 market- I have not once seen a bezel for sale.

sonicosa · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Hah yeah the lume is a big part of it,

Speaking of Lume...

sonicosa
(I've got a 135.027 that I believe was relumed, and I might use the dial I sourced to replace that existing dial. Will post pics later, I'm interested in other's thoughts.)

I bought this watch from the original owner who got it as a high school graduation present in 1972. He told me he had it serviced in the mid-80s and the main spring was replaced. He stuck it in a drawer at some point when it started running fast, and it sat there until he sold it earlier this year.

I asked him if he had the lume reapplied at any point, and he said he didn't recall that happening. To me the watch looks like it was most likely relumed at some point, possibly during the service in the 80s. The hands and marker at 12 look to be original to me, and the rest of the painted hour markers look like they were relumed. What do others think?

I own this dial, and I've been considering having installed when I get the watch serviced. (It's been sitting patiently in the queue for about six months now.) There is a bump between 8 and 9 that is barely noticeable when wearing. If I had the dials swapped. I'd most likely hold onto the original dial.

What do you think? Keep it original or go for the even lume?

wcm82 · Oct 30, 2020

Well if it's going in for service anyways why not! I wonder if they could sort out the bump as well? I wonder if it works like on cars where you can use dry ice to pop dints back into shape 😀

sonicosa · Oct 30, 2020

Speaking of lume round 2

JwRosenthal
The lume and dial condition is the make or break for me...
The one that just sold is only valuable to someone who will either wear it that way, has a spare bezel, or wanted it for the parts (the dial was nice).

That was why I was bidding on it. Take a look at my next watch:

As has been discussed lately https://omegaforums.net/threads/opening-a-can-of-worms.121685/page-2#post-1633730, this dial had some lume that was on the swampy end of the mossy range, so I cleaned it from the dial. I'm planning to get a sympathetic relume done some time soon, but I wouldn't have minded swapping in the dial, hands, and date disc from that ebay watch if I could have gotten it for a price that worked for me.

...and here's one more for kicks (I know the second hand is not correct.)

sonicosa · Oct 30, 2020

W wcm82
Well if it's going in for service anyways why not! I wonder if they could sort out the bump as well? I wonder if it works like on cars where you can use dry ice to pop dints back into shape 😀

There is no dent on the the back of the dial, so the bump must be a different kind of defect. If I installed it, I'd just leave the dial as is. I'd rather not risk any damage trying to improve on its condition.

kaplan · Nov 1, 2020

Two very obvious fakes from Japan, same seller: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/e459543930 https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/n460617813

There's also one price scam Seamaster 120 for repeated sale: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/w424373010

They drove the price to $1400 with fake bids yesterday, then cancelled that auction and listed it for $1900 ^

My personal price reference is Yahoo Japan auctions, even though American flippers join those auctions too, the natural prices end up actual worths of watches - sadly I didn't witness a Men's Seamaster 120 yet, the $830 price I witnessed was for a Ladies one (I checked later on)

Even on Japan, there's this fake bids tactic, I assumed Japan would be free of it, but they do it, for example I want to collect 168.029's, they sell for $550-$850 (with bracelet) - there's one listing that pops up every week from this seller: https://page.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/l619272652 - he drives the price to $1700-$1900 - then cancels/relists - if any naive bidder gets caught up in it, I assume they end up buying an inflated watch - the watch he's selling is worth $700 with the good condition but missing bracelet

Anyway, regardless of the market, if a manual/613 Seamaster 120 pops up, I doubled my budget for it, losing the 563 hit me harder than expected, I only got 2 hours of sleep, and I had a 10 hour road trip ahead of me, it wasn't pleasant 😁

JwRosenthal · Nov 1, 2020

Just as a point of reference- I bought mine for $900 knowing it wasn’t perfect- paid $375 for the service (it needed parts), $200 for the correct tritium hand set from a member here (I got lucky- they perfectly matched the lume) and it didn’t come with the factory bracelet...and that was a little while ago.
If I were in the market for one of these now and wanted a very nice example that had no issue- I would budget $2k and go for the best one i can find. These aren’t watches you want as a project.

My Early Seamaster 120 Divers. What to look for and what to avoid.

wcm82

JwRosenthal

uwsearch

kaplan

wcm82

hmmmcamu

kaplan

X350 XJR

kaplan

JwRosenthal

kaplan

JwRosenthal

wcm82

JwRosenthal

sonicosa

wcm82

sonicosa

sonicosa

kaplan

JwRosenthal

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