More jewels means better movement?

Dan S · Jul 27, 2019

Horologist
Most manual watches made in Switzerland with 17 jewels were considered a safe bet reflecting quality and durability..

Earlier models with 15 jewels lacked the shock protection and the center wheel did not have a jewel pivot where the bushing would wear prematurely causing side shake. The addition of the extra jewel minimized the premature wearing. One would of course always service their movements to avoid any form of oversight

Self winding watches (automatic) with 21 jewels or more were considered to also reflect the same safe bet..

There are also 17 jewel automatics that one would wonder whether they are less superior to the manual version containing the same number of jewels which obviously would have required more jewels to justify the automatic assembly Especially reverser wheels was always an issue if any servicing was overlooked.

Most of the Felsa movements that I have come across in automatics have a rotor jewel which in my opinion is a classier setup than the Rolex naked axle sleeve and Omega rotor post on rivets. In this case the rotor jewel added in that area makes one wonder if adding more jewels to a movement makes it better? Begs the question is it myth in some ways and fact in other ways!!

In my experience, with Rolex, Omega, and Seiko especially, the low-jeweled versions of automatic movements often have several badly worn bushings in the auto-winding assembly that need to be retrofitted with jewels.

Horologist · Jul 27, 2019

Dan S
In my experience, with Rolex, Omega, and Seiko especially, the low-jeweled versions of automatic movements often have several badly worn bushings in the auto-winding assembly that need to be retrofitted with jewels.

Ditto!!!! exactly the point I was trying to make. I have found that 17 jeweled automatic timepieces to have been of lower quality than the same caliber with a higher jewel count,

Archer · Jul 27, 2019

Dan S
In my experience, with Rolex, Omega, and Seiko especially, the low-jeweled versions of automatic movements often have several badly worn bushings in the auto-winding assembly that need to be retrofitted with jewels.

True, but is that bad thing? What may seem to be "better" is not necessarily so. In many cases adding jewels instead of bushings simply changes the part that wears, so for example in a Cal. 550 automatic that has 17 jewels, I can pretty much count on changing all the bushings in the automatic bridges and the wheels will often be fine. But in the 552 24 jewel version, I will end up typically replacing all the wheels, and the jewels are fine.

So would I rather replace 8 bushings at around $7 each, or spend something like $160 on new wheels?

Cheers, Al

Dan S · Jul 27, 2019

Archer
True, but is that bad thing? What may seem to be "better" is not necessarily so. In many cases adding jewels instead of bushings simply changes the part that wears, so for example in a Cal. 550 automatic that has 17 jewels, I can pretty much count on changing all the bushings in the automatic bridges and the wheels will often be fine. But in the 552 24 jewel version, I will end up typically replacing all the wheels, and the jewels are fine.

So would I rather replace 8 bushings at around $7 each, or spend something like $160 on new wheels?

Cheers, Al

Somehow I think you may have already pointed this out to me previously, but it slipped my mind anyway.

Horologist · Jul 27, 2019

Archer
True, but is that bad thing? What may seem to be "better" is not necessarily so. In many cases adding jewels instead of bushings simply changes the part that wears, so for example in a Cal. 550 automatic that has 17 jewels, I can pretty much count on changing all the bushings in the automatic bridges and the wheels will often be fine. But in the 552 24 jewel version, I will end up typically replacing all the wheels, and the jewels are fine.

So would I rather replace 8 bushings at around $7 each, or spend something like $160 on new wheels?

Cheers, Al

Yes very valid points, which is what these forums are all about! Thanks for bringing that up! Those that have no experience with the pros and cons would be inclined to think the opposite. To me better is what is the most efficient and if changing bushings rather than changing wheels is the more feasible option then, yes it is better! I guess it is what is the more feasible of the options and what is available in the now extinct spare parts market

With how the spare parts issue is now since the last 18 months, looks like this is the way to go. Stock up now with whatever is left as pretty soon it looks like the swatch group will be a powerful contender in Wall Street! LOL!

Archer · Jul 28, 2019

Horologist
Yes very valid points, which is what these forums are all about! Thanks for bringing that up! Those that have no experience with the pros and cons would be inclined to think the opposite. To me better is what is the most efficient and if changing bushings rather than changing wheels is the more feasible option then, yes it is better! I guess it is what is the more feasible of the options and what is available in the now extinct spare parts market

With how the spare parts issue is now since the last 18 months, looks like this is the way to go. Stock up now with whatever is left as pretty soon it looks like the swatch group will be a powerful contender in Wall Street! LOL!

Spare parts are still available to those who want to have them - you just need to apply for a parts account.

For me as a watchmaker it's makes no difference if it's bushings or jewels. I just fix what's in front of me, so this is more for the watch buyers to decide. Changing a few bushings takes just a few minutes with the Horia tool, so either way it's not a big deal for the watchmaker. It's more about the cost of the parts for the watch owners.

Cheers, Al

Horologist · Jul 28, 2019

Archer
Spare parts are still available to those who want to have them - you just need to apply for account
Cheers, Al

Not entirely true! You need to be an authorised service Center or a delegate of an authorised service Center Yes, anyone can apply BUT whether you get it is another matter! For the odd independent watchmaker, retiree or former professional watchmaker who is now just an amateur needing the odd part every now and then is as promising as snow falling in Dubai during their hottest summer.

I do know an employee of an independent authorised Center that will get me parts from the back door if I am willing to go down that path, but the catch is that the current asking prices are so ridiculous that it defeats the purpose of repairing the watch in comparison to say 2 years ago! It has also created an open door to opportunists!!

Archer · Jul 28, 2019

Horologist
Not entirely true! You need to be an authorised service Center or a delegate of an authorised service Center

All you need is to have a well equipped shop, to have appropriate education and experience, and to attend some training. You don’t need to be a service center or to be affiliated with one.

I have a parts account and I am a fully independent watchmaker.

Bumper · Jul 28, 2019

iamnuts
A friend at work had one removed, he still keeps good time!

Has he been tested in 5 positions? Temperature?

Horologist · Jul 28, 2019

Archer
All you need is to have a well equipped shop, to have appropriate education and experience, and to attend some training. You don’t need to be a service center or to be affiliated with one.
.

Wow that is great news!!!! Even to buy a plexi for any watchmaker to install including an amateur.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

By the way, I was also thinking of opening up a brain surgery theatre. I just got some great advice that I will enroll in high school then pass the grade, will do my medical school exams, become an intern , then do my brain surgery training and pass the test. This will just get me over the line to write a prescription for myself to get a panadeine forte pill to cure my headache!!! It is as easy as one two three!!!

Archer · Jul 28, 2019

Horologist
Wow that is great news!!!! Even to buy a plexi for any watchmaker to install including an amateur.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

No idea what point you are trying to make. I’m just saying that the claim that parts aren’t available is false. Any real horologist won’t have a problem getting an account. Of course parts are not as widely available as they have been in the past, but that’s the way the industry works these days.

Horologist · Jul 28, 2019

Archer
I’m just saying that the claim that parts aren’t available is false. .

I never said that!!! Of course parts are available, but only to those privileged to have this parts account. I didn't realize I had to be that literal.

All kidding aside, I am just saying is that it is not as easy as it was especially for Omega parts. Interestingly, one does not have to do go through the same demands to get parts for Longines timepieces after enquiring this morning. It is how the industry works with Omega spare parts these days unless things change there too!! Hope this makes my point clear as I would hate to get into an argument with you, especially after all the technical information you provide on this forum for which I myself am grateful for!!! .

Dan S · Jul 28, 2019

Horologist
Wow that is great news!!!! Even to buy a plexi for any watchmaker to install including an amateur.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

By the way, I was also thinking of opening up a brain surgery theatre. I just got some great advice that I will enroll in high school then pass the grade, will do my medical school exams, become an intern , then do my brain surgery training and pass the test. This will just get me over the line to write a prescription for myself to get a panadeine forte pill to cure my headache!!! It is as easy as one two three!!!

Hopefully just a "drunk post".

Archer · Jul 29, 2019

Horologist
I never said that!!! Of course parts are available, but only to those privileged to have this parts account.

You make this out to be something that is extraordinarily difficult to get and is only offered to a very few people. Any watchmaker can apply for this, and the requirements are not nearly as strenuous as you make them out to be. Certainly comparing to becoming a brain surgeon makes me wonder if you have been practicing that vocation on yourself at home in the kitchen or something...😉

What I am saying is that any watchmaker who runs a proper modern shop won't have to do much to get an account. So to use your very odd analogy, this is like someone who is already a brain surgeon opening their own business as brain surgeon, rather than working in a hospital. So they are already qualified and just need to do a few extra things to get a license open their own private practice.

I am one guy running my own shop, so if I can do it, lots of others can too. The people who don't apply sometimes tend to whine about it on forums, talk about how much it would cost them, etc. It's a business decision and if a watchmaker decides it's not worth it to them, that's their right. Just don't whine about it all the time...

Cheers, Al

STANDY · Jul 29, 2019

Silent partner that’s not so silent anymore 😗

Horologist
I don't post often as I am more of a a lurker. Years ago, I was a silent partner in a horology boutique (hence my user name Horologist) where I did a lot of the behind the scenes parts of running the business and we were amongst the first to deal with vintage watches back in the late 1980s, specializing in Rolex and Omega. Bad health and family issues brought an end to this.

iamnuts · Jul 29, 2019

Bumper
Has he been tested in 5 positions? Temperature?

From what he has told me he has been "tested" in a variety of positions, and in varying conditions.... Though he didn't go into precise details and I didn't ask lol

JimInOz · Jan 18, 2025

Just to refresh this thread.
Found in my Swiss watch graveyard.
Sixteen Jewels doing nothing.

sheepdoll · Jan 18, 2025

My uncle used to say "21 jewels and room for 4 more."

DaveK · Jan 19, 2025

JimInOz
Just to refresh this thread.
Found in my Swiss watch graveyard.
Sixteen Jewels doing nothing.

It must have been embarrassing for the watchmakers when the marketing dept wandered in with that bright idea

pkaye6 · Jan 19, 2025

As someone who has been around watches a fairly long time, purchased my first good watch, an Omega Speedmaster in the 60s. I'm also someone who never had much education on why it was a good watch. Threads like this one are part of the reason I like this forum so much. Thank You to all of you knowledgeable people who share with us of less knowledge, helping us to know more about the watches we own or want to own. 🙏🏻

More jewels means better movement?

Dan S

Horologist

Archer

Dan S

Horologist

Archer

Horologist

Archer

Bumper

Horologist

Archer

Horologist

Dan S

Archer

STANDY

iamnuts

JimInOz

sheepdoll

DaveK

pkaye6

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