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TNTwatch
·Especially those who have a few, I don't think they wear them often enough to experience problems... 😉
Lemania Eberhard Mareoscope caliber 5190 - The wackiest of the 5100 calibers!
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Northernman
··LemaniacEspecially those who have a few, I don't think they wear them often enough to experience problems... 😉
😀
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Fritz
·Beautiful watch. And as anengineer from the plastics industry with 20 years of working with engineering grade materials including many grades of acetals (Delrin), I like my watches all metal.
But that may be because I'm just sick of the stuff
And car parts
Especially bearings
Did I mention it's a beautiful watch?
But that may be because I'm just sick of the stuff
And car parts
Especially bearings
Did I mention it's a beautiful watch?
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerSorry to stir up the debate. I wasn't asking about whether derlin was good, but interested to hear if it has been a problem for anyone, especially anyone who has a few 5100s.
Yes - I can't speak from an owners perspective, but I belong to a few watchmaker groups and this topic comes up every so often, usually in the context of someone looking for these specific parts. I recall a thread a few years ago where someone asked about finding a new calendar support as the one they had in the watch was found cracked when they took the watch apart for service. This lead to a rather long discussion with people chiming in with the same experience.
I can't say how common this is, but all the experiences I've read about were related to the watch being found in this condition on disassembly for routine service, so not abused in any way, as the parts in question are sort of sandwiched inside the movement.
Cheers, Al
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAl. I do value your input. Perhaps I have not got your point yet. I may be slow, even if I am an engineer too.
I wrote this post since I found the tidal/moon phase complication of the 5190 interesting and worth sharing.
For one I am truly no 5100 fanboy! I like the layout, but would much rather keep other watches if I for some reason should need to sell all but one watch.
Thread derailing is fine. It is almost mandatory here at OF. But I will make it clear I was not in anyway intending to draw your knowledge in question.
I fully agree that Delrin or whatever is not magical. It's a plastic. Perhaps better than the ones used in some Chinese kids toys (I hope so) but still plastic.
I merely tried to point out that it is not as bad as some might try to argue in some other threads I have seen around.
And it was really at the end of the day not my focus when I started this thread anyway.
My point was simply related to your first post on the subject and the sentiment expressed in this:
"but the so called plastic parts are actually a very tough Delrin material"
If I had to give a name to this, it would be the "It's not really plastic, it's DELRIN!" syndrome. 😀
It's a belief not based in any reality that Delrin is a material that is so good that calling it mere plastic is somehow wrong and derogatory (hence the use of "so called" in your post). That, along with claims about "it is said" regarding the toughness of the movement, and "proof" of this because certain military and police forces used the movement, all seem to be over the top to me personally.
Is this movement really any "tougher" than say an ETA 7750? I admit I don't service a ton of 5100 based watches, but I do service hundreds off 7750 based watches, and have seen them survive all kinds of incidents - one that comes to mind is the guy that fell of his motorcycle and the watch had some pretty bad road rash. The case had damage certainly, but the movement just received a regular service. And yes the 7750 has a plastic brake (some do anyway) and a plastic friction spring for the chronograph runner, and they both work very well - in particular the friction spring assembly. Unlike on an 861 etc. these never have to be adjusted for tension to eliminate a jerky chronograph hand.
In no way am I saying that it's a mistake to buy one of these 5100's if you like them, or that for certain the plastic parts will fail, and certainly the layout has it's advantages. It's mostly a very pedestrian or maybe "industrial" movement is the right word. Like most watch movements, it was built to a price, and in this case it really shows as even the parts of the movement that aren't plastic remind me of Soviet bloc movements in their look and feel.
"I merely tried to point out that it is not as bad as some might try to argue in some other threads I have seen around."
In the end it looks like we are doing the same thing, but from opposite ends...😉
Cheers, Al
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Northernman
··LemaniacAs a purely informative sideline here is a blog showing the disassembly and rebuild of a 5100. Plenty of non-metal stuff for sure!
https://thewatchbloke.co.uk/2015/10/30/sinnbell-ross-chronograph/
No doubt a very industrial product. Much a child of its times. Cost shaving was key for survival in the late 70s, early 80s.
I have owned 7750 based chronographs, but could not get used to the awkward sound the autowinder makes.
Nothing against the 7750, but I do prefer (more and more as my eyesight deteriorates) the long chronograph minute hand of the 5100.
https://thewatchbloke.co.uk/2015/10/30/sinnbell-ross-chronograph/
No doubt a very industrial product. Much a child of its times. Cost shaving was key for survival in the late 70s, early 80s.
I have owned 7750 based chronographs, but could not get used to the awkward sound the autowinder makes.
Nothing against the 7750, but I do prefer (more and more as my eyesight deteriorates) the long chronograph minute hand of the 5100.
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ahsposo
··Most fun screen name at ΩFNow I want a tide watch.
Damn you!
Damn you!
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TNTwatch
·Nothing against the 7750, but I do prefer (more and more as my eyesight deteriorates) the long chronograph minute hand of the 5100.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerAs a purely informative sideline here is a blog showing the disassembly and rebuild of a 5100. Plenty of non-metal stuff for sure!
https://thewatchbloke.co.uk/2015/10/30/sinnbell-ross-chronograph/
No doubt a very industrial product. Much a child of its times. Cost shaving was key for survival in the late 70s, early 80s.
I have owned 7750 based chronographs, but could not get used to the awkward sound the autowinder makes.
Nothing against the 7750, but I do prefer (more and more as my eyesight deteriorates) the long chronograph minute hand of the 5100.
Holy 9504 Batman! I think the technical term here is a "shit ton" of grease was used...yikes! 😲
Anyway, an interesting disassembly and reassembly for those who haven't seen these before. I am always struck by statements like this:
"There’s a lot of plastic and nylon used in one of these, which contrary to what you’d think actually adds to the movements ability to absorb shocks."
Again at first glance this seems to make sense, but what does it really mean? If you asked me if the calendar parts in any watch are particularly prone to failures because of shock, the answer would be a definite "no!" so is the plastic here somehow adding to the ability to absorb shocks that aren't actually a problem in the first place? I have yet to get a watch in with a jammed calendar because of a shock, so these statements just don't ring true to me personally, and it sounds like repeating something that you heard stated by another person, who was just repeating someone else, and so on...
The 7750 was also made to a price point, and yes some people have the 7750 wobble, and many love it. It is arguably the most successful chronograph movement ever made, and honestly most complaints I see about it (other than the wobble) are related to it being so ubiquitous. In a way it's a victim of it's own success. For me it's a joy to work on, and having owned one in the past (that Hijak now owns) I find it a superbly performing movement...if you can get past the wobble.
Cheers, Al
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Northernman
··LemaniacThen there's the Omega 1040 with no plastic or the Lemania 1340 with delrin brake...😀
I think the plastic also came in later Omega 1040s?
Lemania made several variations on the 134x. Different regulator and a couple of other variations such as jewel count.
I have never really gotten the system (if there ever was one) as it seems to be variations all over.
😕
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TNTwatch
·And the Lemania 1341.
I think the plastic also came in later Omega 1040s?
Lemania made several variations on the 134x. Different regulator and a couple of other variations such as jewel count.
I have never really gotten the system (if there ever was one) as it seems to be variations all over.
😕
About the 134x, if you haven't got all the answers, who does? 😀
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Fritz
·Dude you have no idea how sick of bearings I was after being involved in their production for 23 years...so I can relate. That's why I am a watchmaker now - the auto industry was getting to me!
Lemme rub yer nose in it!
the big white thrust bearing is a top strut bearing for a mid size GM platform, so with one on the top of each strut, the vehicle, all 3000+ pounds of it, sits on these ugly little beggers. the top housing is Delrin 100P acetal, the bottom Zytel 101L nylon 6/6. Inside is two hardened raceways and 56 0.156" balls....
yeah, your Impala rides on a plastic bearing.
Honda skipped the balls altogether with the minivan using a similar housing with a polyethylene ring inside on top of each strut, no metal. all plastic....supporting the van........ick.
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gop76
·With plastic or without plastic, it's a damn good looking watch
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sweets
·Lovely, you need a Diascope now to complete the set (of Eberhard-only complications).
I find some of these "it's got plastic, yeuch" - "no - plastic gooood" - "ah, but plastic may break" - "but it doesn't" discussions very wearing.
And most of the strong opinions are just that, on both sides. Very little evidence presented.
I too am a fan of the movement, and have never had a problem with the plastic failing on any of my (>50) 5100s over the years.
Tell a lie, I had one that arrived with a mashed calendar wheel (plastic) from date setting when the gear train was engaged. This is not a 5100-only problem.
I have had plenty of problems with the non-bearing, auto-winding bearing. That seems to be one specification shortcut that doesn't work on the 5100 as well as it does elsewhere. And it isn't plastic.
I am not a fan of the movement because of the plastic, but because of the specification and performance.
The plastic just is.
And by now 5100s have been in use for over 42 years. Surely there is now enough usage to prove that it works as well as other materials.
Yes, it may not reach 100 years in a similar state of function, but how many watches actually last that long anyway?
Dave
I find some of these "it's got plastic, yeuch" - "no - plastic gooood" - "ah, but plastic may break" - "but it doesn't" discussions very wearing.
And most of the strong opinions are just that, on both sides. Very little evidence presented.
I too am a fan of the movement, and have never had a problem with the plastic failing on any of my (>50) 5100s over the years.
Tell a lie, I had one that arrived with a mashed calendar wheel (plastic) from date setting when the gear train was engaged. This is not a 5100-only problem.
I have had plenty of problems with the non-bearing, auto-winding bearing. That seems to be one specification shortcut that doesn't work on the 5100 as well as it does elsewhere. And it isn't plastic.
I am not a fan of the movement because of the plastic, but because of the specification and performance.
The plastic just is.
And by now 5100s have been in use for over 42 years. Surely there is now enough usage to prove that it works as well as other materials.
Yes, it may not reach 100 years in a similar state of function, but how many watches actually last that long anyway?
Dave
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerI find some of these "it's got plastic, yeuch" - "no - plastic gooood" - "ah, but plastic may break" - "but it doesn't" discussions very wearing.
Me too - makes me wonder why you brought it up again...😀
And most of the strong opinions are just that, on both sides. Very little evidence presented.
With regards to there being only opinions rather than evidence, well the watchmakers I know who have said they have found these parts cracked would have no real motivation to lie about it, but if you want to discount them I guess that’s your prerogative.
I too am a fan of the movement, and have never had a problem with the plastic failing on any of my (>50) 5100s over the years.
Unless you had all 50+ movements serviced, you would not necessarily know if there were any cracked plastic parts inside.
I run across this on forums sometimes – it’s a sort of logical fallacy that combines the personal incredulity fallacy with the anecdotal fallacy – I’ll call it the “because I haven’t had this problem, this problem doesn’t exist” fallacy.
I usually encounter this is relation to problems surrounding the Omega 2 level co-axial movements and their design problems. I think it applies here also, and if there’s one thing I have learned being a watchmaker, you “never say never” when it comes to problems coming up with movements, even movements that some say are very robust.
Here’s a recent example...I have serviced a large number of Omega 861 and family movements...I haven’t counted how many exactly but it’s certainly in the hundreds. But in the watch world 50 or even 200 or 300 movements is a very small sample size. So after servicing hundreds of these movements, and never ever having a problem with a particular part, I get a watch coming back to me because the start/stop pusher suddenly won’t come back out once it’s been depressed.
And here is the reason – a broken operating lever spring:
And this is what an intact spring looks like:
So am I going to go around telling people not to buy one of these watches because of this? Certainly not, and no one (at least here on OF) is telling anyone here not to buy a watch based on the 5100 because of the plastic parts inside - just saying that it's a potential problem. For me more knowledge is better, but for some maybe not.
Yes, it may not reach 100 years in a similar state of function, but how many watches actually last that long anyway?
🙄
Cheers, Al
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Northernman
··LemaniacIt's a Sin(n).... 😗😗🤔
👍
👍
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Myron
·Anders, congratulations on this beautiful Eberhard. I have often admired the model and considered it...
Al, thanks for clarifying some of the more technical aspects of the 5100. I have four watches with this movement and enjoy wearing and using them all. I also have several 7750-powered watches and enjoy the characteristic wobble. Don't really have a favorite, although I prefer the central minutes chrono hand on the 5100 for its readability at a glance.
Great thread everyone.
Myron
Al, thanks for clarifying some of the more technical aspects of the 5100. I have four watches with this movement and enjoy wearing and using them all. I also have several 7750-powered watches and enjoy the characteristic wobble. Don't really have a favorite, although I prefer the central minutes chrono hand on the 5100 for its readability at a glance.
Great thread everyone.
Myron
