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Laughable ‘For Sale’ threads recently
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gostang9
·I am not entirely sure I understand your Assumption 1, but if you are saying a recent service adds value over an unserviced poorly running watch then yes I fully agree. I mentally price a service in to any watch I am looking at if there is no proof of a service (see above).
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janice&fred
·Those 3 assumptions are not mine. I believe they represent assumptions held by people who insist that any given watch has a fixed 'market-price' that does not, cannot and should not change regardless of service level. I find that mindset perplexing, and the only way I can try to understand where it comes from is that they must start from those 3 assumptions...
I think you are making too many assumptions. JWRosenthal was using only 1 of his watches as an example of pricing with or without service.
An el-cheapo watch is not going to sell for much more than average market value regardless of how much service was done to it. People in the market for those watches are more willing to take a gamble on how long they run. Now a $3000 watch is a different story...
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JwRosenthal
·The examples I used earlier are painting with a broad brush to illustrate a point. Yes, a serviced and documented watch is always worth a premium over an unknown history- and I actually don't understand why anyone would beleive I don't value a serviced watch- I am always an advocate for servicing and like others, take it into account when I buy a watch with unknown history.
The diver example I wrote was lacking tons of nuance like service history, original bracelet with links, box and paperwork...yeah, we get it- all those things matter- but we need to start with a baseline somewhere otherwise it's just the Wild West.
I take umbrage with the notion that anyone would assume I think a trusted member here is a "liar"- that's really offensive and putting words in my mouth. I would happily trust a veteran member on this forum who states that a watch has received a service but lacks documention- I have several times and do apply a mental premium for it.
To use a real world example of the point I was trying to make about expecting someone to pay for my "mistakes":
I bought a very nice MKII Zodiac Seawolf from a member here who I know and trust- it was sold to me as unserviced, but running. I paid $350 for it, and we both walked away happy.
The watch had some cosmetic issues and would lose or gain time in different positions- but I bought it knowing it was an as-is sale and I assume any risk. I had always wanted a Seawolf so it was worth it to me to invest in it. A year of back and forth with the watchmaker, 2 parts movements, 2 different balance assemblies (neither of which were correct despite being sold as correct so he had to cobble the parts) a handful of other NOS parts, plus having the hands relumed and dial lume stabilized- and having to source an extra link for the long NLA bracelet from a parts bracelet- I got the watch where I want it. Total in on this watch is now close to $1k.
If I were to sell this watch, it has a market value of roughly $6-800 based on comps including the service- it's not a flawless example, I can't ask flawless prices. Sure, I could post it with the list of all that was done to it and hope someone sees the value of my investment, but I can't expect for someone else to assume my loss- I spent far more than the watch was worth- but that was my choice and I did it because I love the watch- as many of us do.
I have spent $2-300 on a service for a watch I bought for $35 and at most would be worth $150 fully serviced and looking fabulous-it's just part of the hobby.
The diver example I wrote was lacking tons of nuance like service history, original bracelet with links, box and paperwork...yeah, we get it- all those things matter- but we need to start with a baseline somewhere otherwise it's just the Wild West.
I take umbrage with the notion that anyone would assume I think a trusted member here is a "liar"- that's really offensive and putting words in my mouth. I would happily trust a veteran member on this forum who states that a watch has received a service but lacks documention- I have several times and do apply a mental premium for it.
To use a real world example of the point I was trying to make about expecting someone to pay for my "mistakes":
I bought a very nice MKII Zodiac Seawolf from a member here who I know and trust- it was sold to me as unserviced, but running. I paid $350 for it, and we both walked away happy.
The watch had some cosmetic issues and would lose or gain time in different positions- but I bought it knowing it was an as-is sale and I assume any risk. I had always wanted a Seawolf so it was worth it to me to invest in it. A year of back and forth with the watchmaker, 2 parts movements, 2 different balance assemblies (neither of which were correct despite being sold as correct so he had to cobble the parts) a handful of other NOS parts, plus having the hands relumed and dial lume stabilized- and having to source an extra link for the long NLA bracelet from a parts bracelet- I got the watch where I want it. Total in on this watch is now close to $1k.
If I were to sell this watch, it has a market value of roughly $6-800 based on comps including the service- it's not a flawless example, I can't ask flawless prices. Sure, I could post it with the list of all that was done to it and hope someone sees the value of my investment, but I can't expect for someone else to assume my loss- I spent far more than the watch was worth- but that was my choice and I did it because I love the watch- as many of us do.
I have spent $2-300 on a service for a watch I bought for $35 and at most would be worth $150 fully serviced and looking fabulous-it's just part of the hobby.
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gostang9
·An el-cheapo watch is not going to sell for much more than average market value regardless of how much service was done to it. People in the market for those watches are more willing to take a gamble on how long they run.
I have had all my watches serviced (regardless of price-point) and for me there was 'value' in each service. However, I bought and serviced these watches so that I could keep and enjoy them with no intention of flipping. I also bought them with no service records and so I didn't consider my purchase price as including anything for service (except for 1, in which case I was blatantly lied to by an untrustworthy seller, no longer on OF -- I did not insist on documentation, so that's all on me)
More than price-point, I think there are simply 2 general types of watch owners: (obviously some people are a mix of both...)
a) Those who enjoy owning a mechanical device with hands that move and tell reasonable time, service is of no value unless watch stops telling time. Hopefully it sells before then...
b) Those who want to know that mechanical device is in excellent working condition, tells excellent time and will continue doing so for a long time.
Another assumption I make is that most watch sellers are from type A, and this is why the assumptions are somewhat valid as they do somewhat ring true.
I would have been happy to pay an appropriate premium had I found some offered by seller type B. That's just me...
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janice&fred
·I think there are simply 2 general types of watch owners: (obviously some people are a mix of both...)
I'm not so sure it's that easy to make these assumptions and make such discrete labels or groups. I do think cost and/or value of a watch plays the most important role in whether one wants to pay extra for a serviced watch, or have service done. Of course that means we simply have different opinions.
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gostang9
·The examples I used earlier are painting with a broad brush to illustrate a point. Yes, a serviced and documented watch is always worth a premium over an unknown history- and I actually don't understand why anyone would beleive I don't value a serviced watch-
To be fair, you've contributed a significant amount of valuable content in this thread, so making my point was me being rather persnickety.
I understand you didn't value service based on 2 comments in this thread:
Here...
(if it's worth $1k and you paid $700 for a service, it's still worth $1k not $1.7k)
I traded a watch to a member here which I paid about $450 for, I had it serviced for about $200 (which was a steal to service that watch), and when we traded, I valued it at $450- not becuase I was feeling magnanimous, but becuase that's what they are worth.
Question: In this case, knowing the future outcome was that the serviced watch would be valued at $450 and the service ended up being $200, was the original 'value' of the watch really $250 and so you kind of overpaid in the first place? If that is the case, then it might suggest sellers of unserviced watches are able to get closer than they deserve to the 'market-value' of a serviced watch... right?
I take umbrage with the notion that anyone would assume I think a trusted member here is a "liar"- that's really offensive and putting words in my mouth.
I would happily trust a veteran member on this forum who states that a watch has received a service but lacks documention- I have several times and do apply a mental premium for it.
To use a real world example of the point I was trying to make about expecting someone to pay for my "mistakes":
I bought a very nice MKII Zodiac Seawolf from a member here who I know and trust- it was sold to me as unserviced, but running. I paid $350 for it, and we both walked away happy.
The watch had some cosmetic issues and would lose or gain time in different positions- but I bought it knowing it was an as-is sale and I assume any risk. I had always wanted a Seawolf so it was worth it to me to invest in it. A year of back and forth with the watchmaker, 2 parts movements, 2 different balance assemblies (neither of which were correct despite being sold as correct so he had to cobble the parts) a handful of other NOS parts, plus having the hands relumed and dial lume stabilized- and having to source an extra link for the long NLA bracelet from a parts bracelet- I got the watch where I want it. Total in on this watch is now close to $1k.
If I were to sell this watch, it has a market value of roughly $6-800 based on comps including the service- it's not a flawless example, I can't ask flawless prices. Sure, I could post it with the list of all that was done to it and hope someone sees the value of my investment, but I can't expect for someone else to assume my loss- I spent far more than the watch was worth- but that was my choice and I did it because I love the watch- as many of us do.
I have spent $2-300 on a service for a watch I bought for $35 and at most would be worth $150 fully serviced and looking fabulous-it's just part of the hobby.
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gostang9
·I'm not so sure it's that easy to make these assumptions and make such discrete labels or groups. I do think cost and/or value of a watch plays the most important role in whether one wants to pay extra for a serviced watch, or have service done. Of course that means we simply have different opinions.
I do get agitated when the discussion of 'market-price' comes up because I many don't seem to put much value behind a serviced over a non-serviced watch. I take real pride of ownership in my possessions (home, cars, watches, etc) and there is certainly a 'cost' to keep things maintained. If (when?) I sell anything, I naturally expect a slight market premium over some of the bargain priced options others are selling. My natural instinct is to assume they don't maintain their possessions as well as I do mine, and so it seems silly to assume my items and theirs must automatically be priced the same. <shrug>
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ConElPueblo
·Re: value addition from service...
You can't use anything near a standard formula of how to assess the value added from a service*. It varies according to what price level the model resides at, who the prospective buyer is (his/her own access to servicing, the buyer's individual assessment of the value of the watch, the perceived relation to other brands (a serviced, beautiful €350 Certina may be seen as less good value than an unserviced, €500 Seamaster DeVille) and several other internalised factors), where the watch is sold and what type of use the watch will see. Some watches - generally speaking - do only gain a very little if any value from servicing and others make every penny spent on it back.
You should read the posts more carefully (or keep away completely) if you think the subject is static and the discussion hasn't moved on. Your comment seems fairly pointless.
*and by service, I mean a genuine service, not a "service".
You can't use anything near a standard formula of how to assess the value added from a service*. It varies according to what price level the model resides at, who the prospective buyer is (his/her own access to servicing, the buyer's individual assessment of the value of the watch, the perceived relation to other brands (a serviced, beautiful €350 Certina may be seen as less good value than an unserviced, €500 Seamaster DeVille) and several other internalised factors), where the watch is sold and what type of use the watch will see. Some watches - generally speaking - do only gain a very little if any value from servicing and others make every penny spent on it back.
Wow .... this horse is still dead after five pages of flogging. Still I guess it needed five pages.
You should read the posts more carefully (or keep away completely) if you think the subject is static and the discussion hasn't moved on. Your comment seems fairly pointless.
*and by service, I mean a genuine service, not a "service".
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JwRosenthal
·To be fair, you've contributed a significant amount of valuable content in this thread, so making my point was me being rather persnickety.
I understand you didn't value service based on 2 comments in this thread:
Here...
And here...
Question: In this case, knowing the future outcome was that the serviced watch would be valued at $450 and the service ended up being $200, was the original 'value' of the watch really $250 and so you kind of overpaid in the first place? If that is the case, then it might suggest sellers of unserviced watches are able to get closer than they deserve to the 'market-value' of a serviced watch... right?
For that I apologize, it was not my intent and I see what you mean.
We're on the same page then.
Ok, these points I understand and agree with. I also spend more on servicing watches I like than what any potential selling price might justify. I also wouldn't expect to recoup all of that money spent just because I spent it.
The trade with the member here was on a watch that I really wanted to ask more for- but looking as recent sales history, they were all in the $4-500 range. Sure, the other member was willing to pay the extra, but I'd didn't feel I could justify it- but that's becuase it was with a fellow member. If I had offered that watch on eBay for $650, even with the service paperwork, it wouldn't have sold, it was just too far above comps to justify.
Perhaps my problem is that I think like a buyer, not a seller- even when I do sell. I am always looking as the cold data, what is this worth- how much should I pay, what premium do I apply for condition and accessories?
On the rare occasions I have sold, I think in terms of- what price can I apply to this that would make me want to buy it. It's not about how much can I get, but what would I pay. When I decide to let a watch (or any collectible go) I have to remove my self emotionally- it's just a thing with a value in it now- and if I want it gone- I need to make it gone- but that's just me.
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janice&fred
·Question: In this case, knowing the future outcome was that the serviced watch would be valued at $450 and the service ended up being $200, was the original 'value' of the watch really $250 and so you kind of overpaid in the first place? If that is the case, then it might suggest sellers of unserviced watches are able to get closer than they deserve to the 'market-value' of a serviced watch... right?
I think we should consider the broader picture of the market as we know it online. People are willing to pay $450 for a running watch with no service history let's say on Ebay, so that would probably be the fair market value of that watch. Adding a service cost of $200 on top of the $450 would in most cases not work out, since that lower price point of $450 has been established and the additional cost would be very difficult to get, unless of course among us enthusiasts in the know on forums such as this. Those low cost unserviced watches sell because people are not as concerned about how long they last, or are prepared to run them and take a shot. Now if we move up to lets say an older 1601 datejust, an unserviced but running one will sell all day long for $2500, and a fully serviced one will bring $3000 or more. People can see the added value in that price point.
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LesXL
·I'm tempted to read this whole thread right now... But it is late, and my guts tell me it will be more enjoyable with a coffee tomorrow morning, at my dog walking coffee stop.
6 pages already... Might need 2 coffees 😀
6 pages already... Might need 2 coffees 😀
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Larry S
··Color Commentator for the Hyperbole.Re: value addition from service...
You can't use anything near a standard formula of how to assess the value added from a service*. It varies according to what price level the model resides at, who the prospective buyer is (his/her own access to servicing, the buyer's individual assessment of the value of the watch, the perceived relation to other brands (a serviced, beautiful €350 Certina may be seen as less good value than an unserviced, €500 Seamaster DeVille) and several other internalised factors), where the watch is sold and what type of use the watch will see. Some watches - generally speaking - do only gain a very little if any value from servicing and others make every penny spent on it back.
You should read the posts more carefully (or keep away completely) if you think the subject is static and the discussion hasn't moved on. Your comment seems fairly pointless.
*and by service, I mean a genuine service, not a "service".
-Do your homework. Benchmark. Price it correctly.
- Be clear on how you want to be paid.
- Be honest about it’s condition +- .
- Provide dimensions and a clear description.
- Be honest And provide documentation about the service status.
-Take good pictures. All sides. Inside case back and movement.
- Watches are not an investment so some you win and some you loose.
- If you bought from a dealer, you may not recoup on a collector forum. On the other hand you won’t get clipped by some creep on EBay or pay and auction commission.
- I will add ship insured.
- Don’t show up here just to sell. This is not primarily a sales forum.
Edited:
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janice&fred
·I'm tempted to read this whole thread right now... But it is late, and my guts tell me it will be more enjoyable with a coffee tomorrow morning, at my dog walking coffee stop.
6 pages already... Might need 2 coffees 😀
Discussions like this are very thought-provoking and enjoyable, but I'm kinda running out of energy trying to type meaningful responses and making sense, and as Dan pointed out would rather get back to the true point of this thread which was mocking and blowing off steam. 😁
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redpcar
·I have read carefully. Sellers:
-Do your homework. Benchmark. Price it correctly.
- Be honest about it’s condition +- .
- Be honest And provide documentation about the service status.
-Take good pictures. All sides. Inside case back and movement.
- Watches are not an investment so some you win and some you loose.
- If you bought from a dealer, you may not recoup on a collector forum. On the other hand you won’t get clipped by some creep on EBay or pay and auction commission.
- I will add ship insured.
- Don’t show up here just to sell. This is not primarily a sales forum.
.......and be honest about the size. If you are selling relatively obscure watch, tell me the diameter WITHOUT the crown.
One of my pet peeves, carry on ☕
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Larry S
··Color Commentator for the Hyperbole.Discussions like this are very thought-provoking and enjoyable, but I'm kinda running out of steam trying to type meaningful responses and making sense, and as Dan pointed out would rather get back to the true point of this thread which was mocking and blowing off steam. 😁
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