Lange or Journe

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Indeed. Have you ever walked through an art museum? It's amazing.. The stuff on the walls has really high prices in... The market.

Yes, I’ve been through many art museums...they don’t usually sell the paintings though...so no prices are shown.

Art galleries are where I go to buy art, or more typically directly from the artist where possible.
 
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Yes, I’ve been through many art museums...they don’t usually sell the paintings though...so no prices are shown.

Art galleries are where I go to buy art, or more typically directly from the artist where possible.

No.. They don't. But market prices for artists on the walls can be observed. And they're very high.

In the pantheon of watch history.. Fpj will be there. With genta and Dufour. Lange? Not so much...
 
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No.. They don't. But market prices for artists on the walls can be observed. And they're very high.

In the pantheon of watch history.. Fpj will be there. With genta and Dufour. Lange? Not so much...

Sorry.. When I said Lange I should really say Richemont...
 
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No.. They don't. But market prices for artists on the walls can be observed. And they're very high.

In the pantheon of watch history.. Fpj will be there. With genta and Dufour. Lange? Not so much...

In an art museum, I’m focused on the work, not the price of it...
 
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In an art museum, I’m focused on the work, not the price of it...

Unclear what the difference is. The museum has in large measure set the prices as well. Why are watches any different?

In hedge fund terms if I could be long 38mm journe and short Lange I would do so in unlimited size

Again.. You've cast your lot with a profit maximizing Swiss corporation (Richemont) vs an iconic independent

I say the market is right and the gap will grow indefinitely
 
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Unclear what the difference is.

Exactly.

BTW I don’t own an ALS, and the only Richemont products I own are a JLC and a Panerai.

I bought 2 watches that I enjoy wearing. I haven’t “cast my lot” with any manufacturer, because again, I don’t really care what they do in terms of future value, since I have no need to sell them.
 
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Unclear what the difference is. The museum has in large measure set the prices as well. Why are watches any different?

In hedge fund terms if I could be long 38mm journe and short Lange I would do so in unlimited size

Again.. You've cast your lot with a profit maximizing Swiss corporation (Richemont) vs an iconic independent

I say the market is right and the gap will grow indefinitely

Would you still like your Journe if it lost 90 percent of its value?

I sense that the difference between your collecting ethos and those of others is that you view your watch as an investment. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that, but I personally cannot collect that way. I would be way too scared to wear my watches. It’d be like me wearing my 401k on my wrist!
 
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If you are trying to flip it for profit, or if you can’t really afford it and might have to sell it to pay off debts or something I could understand, but if you have no intent or need to sell, what’s the issue?

If it really bothers you, buy it on the secondary market and let someone else take the hit.

What if your tastes change and you decide to sell one watch to buy another? Even if you smartly bought on the secondary market, the value could still have gone up or down (as you note), and of course vintage watches can only be bought on the secondary market. Should you still be unconcerned at that point?
 
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What if your tastes change and you decide to sell one watch to buy another? Even if you smartly bought on the secondary market, the value could still have gone up or down (as you note), and of course vintage watches can only be bought on the secondary market. Should you still be unconcerned at that point?

I will deal with that when the time comes, as I have done. Again I'm not a flipper, so I don't change watches a lot like some do, and I tend to keep what I buy, even if it's something I don't wear much. I'm not under any pressure to sell anything, so if I only wear it a couple of times per year, that's fine it can sit in the watch box. Again I expect to lose money when I sell the watches I have, and I expect this hobby to cost me some money over time. I don't know if jhross98 is a dealer or not, but I'm not, so I don't look at buying and selling watches as my business - I earn my living servicing them, but the watches I buy are my hobby not an investment.

The watches I have sold I have lost money one, there's no doubt of that, but I wasn't concerned about them. Not because I am super rich as jhross98 has incorrectly concluded, but because I've enjoyed them while I've had them, and I'm happy to let them go to someone else to enjoy. The annualized cost of owning them for the time I did wasn't outsized compared to the enjoyment I received. I've said this in other threads but a friend of mine looks at purchases for watches (of which he has a far nicer collection than I do) or pretty much any other hobby as "enjoyment units per dollar" and if you get enough enjoyment units for your dollar, and can afford it, then where's the problem?

If you look at jhross98's purchase of his own Journe, he broke his own rules, buying it when he says it was performing worse than ALS on the secondary market. It is now become the market vanquishing master that he loves so much, but if he followed his own investing rules he wouldn't have that market monster now.

My view is that if you are going to limit the watches you collect to "sure bets" for gaining value (if there is such a thing) is that you will be forced to buying a rather narrow choice of brands and specific models, and you would miss out on some truly fantastic watches.

Hope this explains where I'm coming from. Again if others want to look at watches like the stock market, that's fine it's their money. But looking at every watch as an investment would not make this hobby any fun for me. it seems this type of collector (really an investor) has become very common these days, which is why all the talk on many forums is about flipping stainless steel Rolex sport models that in the past I could typically walk in and buy without having to pay double the list price - to me that is far more insane than buying a watch I like but will probably lose some money on down the road if I decide to sell it. The market has spoken, and I'm not interested in what it has to say for the most part.

Cheers, Al
 
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What if your tastes change and you decide to sell one watch to buy another? Even if you smartly bought on the secondary market, the value could still have gone up or down (as you note), and of course vintage watches can only be bought on the secondary market. Should you still be unconcerned at that point?

Yes, you should absolutely be unconcerned because you should be honest with yourself that you have no way of reliably predicting the future value of a watch. The stock market will very likely be worth more than it does now in 10 years. A watch...not so much.

I’ve completely given up on considering value retention when purchasing a watch. If I start thinking in terms of value retention and future worth, I back off and look elsewhere. To me, that means that I either can’t comfortably afford the watch or that I’m buying it for the wrong reasons.
 
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The "market" seems to assign rather asinine prices to Richard Mille watches too, and they are atrocious looking pieces of trash. Maybe Journe watches will maintain their value over time, maybe they won't. But I have a feeling that at some point in the future they are going to be considered dated looking - their designs are just a bit too "out there", to my eyes, to be something considered timeless. Maybe that unique aspect will maintain them through the years - maybe it won't.
 
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FPJ just annoys the cr@p out of me, with that conceited dial motto.
 
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i appreciate that you are worth millions and millions and dollars and don't care if your 80k is worth 50k or you 200k is worth 120k. we got it. well done by you--even better in a pandemic! for most.. that is not the case

i also appreciate the holier than thou attitude of a true watch connoisseur like yourself. . .FYI i bought my journe 15 years ago when the secondary market values were similar (actually inferior) to lange. the verdict of the market is inexorable and bloodless . in art and in watches. yes. . tastes may change. . but i cast my lot with FPJ, or Dufour (mon dieu! your grail maker), or PP, who limit production or take models out of circulation rather than producing endless amounts of the same watches. that is Lange today. and if you think the 38mm journes will some day be below retail MSRP like every Lange ever sold. .good luck to you.


" but i cast my lot with FPJ, or Dufour (mon dieu! your grail maker), or PP, who limit production or take models out of circulation rather than producing endless amounts of the same watches."

you mean like

<fair use>

Patek would participate as a seller, helping drum up interest, and also as a buyer. A strong result would allow Patek to market its wares not just as fine watches but as auction-grade works of art.

The first Patek auction in 1989 featured 301 old and new watches, with Mr. Patrizzi's assessments, and fetched $15 million. Mr. Stern became a top Patrizzi client, buying hundreds of Patek watches at Antiquorum auctions, sometimes at record prices. The brand's retail prices soared. Over the next decade, the company began charging about $10,000 for relatively simple models and more than $500,000 for limited-edition pieces with elaborate functions known in the watch world as "complications."

Patek began promoting its watches as long-term investments. "You never actually own a Patek Philippe," ads read. "You merely look after it for the next generation." Mr. Stern says he bid on used Patek watches as part of a plan to open a company museum in 2001. Building that collection, he says, was key to preserving and promoting the watchmaker's heritage, the brand's most valuable asset with consumers. "Certainly, through our action, we have been raising prices," he says.

Auctions gradually became recognized as marketing tools.

rest here
https://www.wsj.com/articles/SB119178753176051433
 
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specifically on FP Journe

there is a large well known AD that buys and holds large amounts of FP Journe watches with the specific objective of controlling ( read raising ) secondary market prices and then their own profits.
 
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specifically on FP Journe

there is a large well known AD that buys and holds large amounts of FP Journe watches with the specific objective of controlling ( read raising ) secondary market prices and then their own profits.
Govberg?
 
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specifically on FP Journe

there is a large well known AD that buys and holds large amounts of FP Journe watches with the specific objective of controlling ( read raising ) secondary market prices and then their own profits.

They were also pretty draconian when talk of quality issues popped up, pulling support from forums that would not remove posts that were seen as critical to the brand.
Edited:
 
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Are we allowed to post links to other forums?

if so I can provide some data points
 
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Are we allowed to post links to other forums?

if so I can provide some data points

I don’t see why not...