Peaks and troughs appear to be present in this highly lauded movement.

 

Indeed.

 

I think I’m beginning to see it and may never be able to unsee it.

Ignorance is bliss...

 

Knowledge is power...that is the way I prefer to look at it. The fact is, very few makers do this the "best" way, so as I've said this is very common.

It's difficult because you really can get into the weeds on this stuff, and sometimes finding the value you seek in every detail can suck the life out of this hobby. In the end, if you buy a watch and it makes you smile when you put it on, it's money well spent, regardless of the details.

Cheers, Al

 

Take my reply here with a grain of salt, since barring a radical change in my finances, neither of these brands are something I would have the capability of purchasing in the foreseeable future. But reading through this thread, and the lauded praises of the Journe pieces accompanied by pictures of watches that in no way are appealing looking to me, made me wonder if it was some sort of elaborate joke. The amount and size of text on the dial is extremely off-putting. The hands as @Archer pointed out are, um, not my favorite either. In short - I don't get it. In no way do I look at any of the Journe pieces and see something that appeals to me.

So put me in the Lange camp, even though it's not someplace I will ever actually be. But to be completely honest, I'd rather have a GO Panomatic Lunar and an extra $20K in my pocket.

 

I agree with you.

The Richard Lange gives me great pleasure, even with this newly acquired knowledge. This is partly due to what I paid for it; what I deem to be a fair price on the secondary market.

The Chronometre Contemporain by Rexhep Rexhepi is a different matter. This newfound knowledge has altered my perception of the watch and the watchmaker. The watch has received an enormous amount of accolades, with frequent comparisons to Dufour. The price hovers in the 70,000 USD range and the waitlist is insurmountable. And yet they cannot execute a Cotes de Geneve in the proper manner. In my opinion, the hype for this watch is incongruous with the quality of its execution.

This brings up another interesting topic of why certain watches and watchmakers attain cult-like followings. There is no doubt a degree of herd mentality that defies reason.

I want to emphasize that this is exactly why I participate in forums, to gain knowledge, because as you correctly stated, it is power.

 

Pleased to hear that. I hesitated to comment in this thread on that issue, as I don't want to seem like I am attacking someone's watch, and I certainly don't want to spoil it for anyone.

I think there is also simply a lack of knowledge out there, so one of the main reasons I participate is to share mine, however limited it might be.

Finishing is something that most collectors don't understand to a high degree, and typically if it gives a pleasing overall appearance, most people are happy with it. It is partly a "what you get for your money" question, and again to a degree that sort of thinking can suck the fun out of this.

 

Since we’re on the topic of finishing, can you point me toward some good resources comparing the different qualities of anglage, machined vs handmade? I’ve been doing a bit of research but still coming up short.

 

I don't really know of one...

 

Am I seeing things or do I see a little distortion of the anglage at the edge of the Cotes de Geneve on this Dufour?

 

You are seeing things.

 

this is what makes watches so interesting. . everyone has different tastes and variety is the spice of life. there is lots of contemporary art i can't stand that go for huge prices at auction. . to each his own and buy what speaks to you

that said. . .based on the results we are now seeing for Journe

https://www.sothebys.com/en/buy/auc...y-f-p-journe-piaget-the-atmos-clock?locale=en

i think it is fair to say the market has spoken. . the 38mm journe are entering the pantheon of all time classic watches

lange. . not so much

i've owned more than one of both lange and journe but the only watch that "stuck" for me from either is my 38mm resonance which i will never ever sell

 

The "market" is not really my concern when I am buying watch.

 

this has been discussed before. if you can drop 50 or 200k on a watch that immediately loses 30% of its value and never appreciates from there. . good for you

most people who spend 100k on a watch do actually care if it holds value

the trajectory of the two brands in terms of holding value could not be more different. its just a fact. . .if its not relevant to you no worries buy what you like

 

Yes, it's not the first time you have said "the market has spoken" or some such thing. This seems to be a big focus for you - I'm just saying it's not for me.

I fully expect watches to lose value, because most of them do, at least in the short term. The idea that a watch won't lose value, is mostly a very new thing from the Rolex craze, and other like brands or very hot watches. I don't chase the latest and greatest "hot" watch or brand - that's not what I'm interested in.

Okay

Thanks, I always do. I'm not in this to make money, or make an investment. I just like watches, so I buy the ones that give me pleasure. If they give me pelasure and put a smile on my face, as I've said it's money well spent.

 

i like watches too. . . and below a certain price point i also don't care about whether value holds or not. but when lange wants people to drop 80k on a new watch that is immediately worth 50k. . for *most* people that is highly relevant. and it is a major change in the past few years because lange's used to do just fine in the secondary market but something significant has changed

 

Is It? People drop huge amounts of money on cars that depreciate the minute you drive them off the dealership lot. Why does it matter? If you are trying to flip it for profit, or if you can’t really afford it and might have to sell it to pay off debts or something I could understand, but if you have no intent or need to sell, what’s the issue?

If it really bothers you, buy it on the secondary market and let someone else take the hit. This idea that unless a watch is gaining value it’s somehow “not worthy” is one of the saddest things to hit the watch collecting community in my view.

And you seem sure that it can’t go back the other way apparently. The “market” is fickle and can turn on a dime. Just ask all the guys who were paying big dollars for Rolex bubble backs, and ended up losing on them when the frenzy died off and tastes changed. The market isn’t static and brands go up and down, so if you are in for the long haul, none of this matters.

If you want to collect based on the whims of the “market” that’s clearly your choice, but your posts seem to want to put down any watch that isn’t a darling of that market...at least that’s how they come across to me.

Cheers, Al

 

i appreciate that you are worth millions and millions and dollars and don't care if your 80k is worth 50k or you 200k is worth 120k. we got it. well done by you--even better in a pandemic! for most.. that is not the case

i also appreciate the holier than thou attitude of a true watch connoisseur like yourself. . .FYI i bought my journe 15 years ago when the secondary market values were similar (actually inferior) to lange. the verdict of the market is inexorable and bloodless . in art and in watches. yes. . tastes may change. . but i cast my lot with FPJ, or Dufour (mon dieu! your grail maker), or PP, who limit production or take models out of circulation rather than producing endless amounts of the same watches. that is Lange today. and if you think the 38mm journes will some day be below retail MSRP like every Lange ever sold. .good luck to you.

 

Ah yes...the market!

 

Indeed. Have you ever walked through an art museum? It's amazing.. The stuff on the walls has really high prices in... The market.