Finding the thread about the Nasa Speedmaster to be very interesting...What about issued watches generally? I get that many of us have made an assumption that the issued watches that are floating around our community were properly decommissioned and are thus not tainted in terms of possible challenges to ownership. But is that a realistic assumption? Or is it just the slippery slope notion that government agencies have better things to do than chasing down watches (or whatever)? Is the Nasa Speedmaster different just because it may have a higher market value than most issued watches and thus more is at stake for the OP? Thoughts?

 

That thread made me think about this as well. I have a collection of military issued watches from WWII- Vietnam. It’s common lore that GI’s got to keep their watches when they left- assuming they were personal property like their clothing. But is that the case? I don’t know how the DOD handled this. Were they consumables or were they accountably property like rifles- those were turned back when they were discharged.

 

I can speak about my dad's situation - USMC, Gunnery Sargeant, Korean War...

I basically wanted everything he had leftover from his four years in the Corps but as he would often say, "There's very little because it wasn't mine to keep."

Beyond horribly graphic, yet awesome (to a little boy growing up in the 60's/70's), photographs that I stumbled across, he had:
Dress Blues
Dress Greens
One field drab jacket
A wool drab shirt
A single pair of field drab pants
A khaki field belt
A drab lid... and that was it.

I asked about watches, rifles, service revolver, boots, ammo, etc... he would laugh and say, "Those didn't belong to me, they were Uncle Sam's, so I turned them in as it was the right thing to do. What I do have was mine to keep -- the field clothing I have only because it was on my back when I came across the Pacific via our cab drivers in the Navy to Pendleton."
And very somberly he would add, "I wish they would have asked for the actions and memories back too."

 

Topical in that I got some A11 parts this evening.

It does make one wonder about the history of such. When I was little there were stores what sold army surplus. As I noted the building now holds an estate consignment store.

Concepts of ownership seem to changes over the centuries. Especially when it comes to ideas. I personally have never been comfortable with the way intellectual property is handled. A lot may have to do with ego. The Wright Brothers, Edison, Tesla etc all did a lot to promote that they alone were the 'inventor.'

Perhaps we are only stewards of the watches (and other things) in our possession.

Edit: In my workshop there is an Iron bunk bed marked US Army. I use it to store pipe organ parts. I wonder who really owns it now?

 

I will add... if you wanted to see my dad's forehead vein enlarge in a very scary fashion:

it was seeing Govt Issued anything out in the wild. Especially uniforms, patches and medals on anything but Vets themselves in a parade... his level of smoldering fury was palpable and scary as shit to my then little boy brain.

 

Property is theft

 

True, but things get murky when say I loan you my car jack and then ask for it back, you don't respond... and you've either decided to keep it or you sold it to help toward the purchase of a new G-Shock.

 

Just to further confuse things.

Many many many "issued" military watches were disposed of by the military agency responsible for them.
I heard of a dealer who picked up 90% of the Jaquet Droz diver watches disposed of by the Royal Australian Navy some years ago.
@watchyouwant may remember the details more clearly then me?
These items are quite legal to own

In about thirty years of service in the RAN/RAAF, and co-mingling with many members of others services, both foreign and domestic, I am well aware of the shenanigans that go on across the globe related to the "accidental misappropriation" of military equipment.
Without incriminating anyone, I have personally witnessed things being "sentenced for destruction", but then appearing again to be "sentenced for destruction". Everything from flying jackets to 9mm submachine guns and 7.62mm L1A1 rifles.
These items are not quite legal to own.

 

Buncha UK ex-MoD decommissioned watches coming up in this auction...

https://bid.mod-sales.com/auctions/8487/witham10139

 

Yeppers…I was supposed to return my issued USN G-1 leather flight jacket when I left active duty in 1992…but I didn’t return it [I stole it]. Always felt guilty about it…and when I applied to become a Cincinnati Police Officer many years later, I admitted in the application and polygraph to what I had done. The Cincinnati Police Department had a field day with this…and I was booted from the application process. I appealed my situation before a review board where they came to the conclusion of “some members of the military will acquire certain things, and in the case of a military aviator, it is understandable that they would want to keep their issued flight jacket”. Anyway, I was reinstated into the application process and was hired…and I still have [and wear] my G-1.

 

Check out this OPNAVINST. You are allowed to retain your Type G-1 flight jacket provided that you separated from the Service honourably.


Unfortunately, I'm unable to provide a link to the pdf document and I'm unable to attach the file. That's why I used a screen shot.

 

Regarding the mystery NASA Speedmaster with radial dial:
If it's valuable enough for NASA to allocate the watch its own individual serial number, then it must be important enough for there to be records kept on who's been issued that piece or if it should still be in NASA's stores inventory. Assuming these watches have never been declared obsolete and scheduled for disposal, then they remain government property. It should be as simple as that.

Regarding service issue watches:
I would imagine that there were hundreds, possibly thousands, of them issued during large conflicts like WW2. At the cessation of hostilities, with huge numbers of troops being demobilised, it would have been pretty chaotic and I'm sure a few of these watches would have slipped through the cracks. The government would have had its hands full accounting for all the big ticket items like firearms, tanks, aircraft etc. Watches would have been small fry. It's only today that they're worth so much because they're rare and of historical significance.

 

Which is why, IMO the owner of the recently discussed speedy should breath easy.

 

I would normally agree with you, but according to the account from @TLIGuy - nasa still considers those active assets (show me the proof) and has a deep desire to get these specific watches back despite them being 40 years old and not likely to be used for active service. They are of no practical value to the government- IMO not even of historical significance because they apparently never even flew!
To me this would be akin to nasa or DOD seizing John Glenn’s issued watches at his estate auction- he took them when he left, nobody seems to care then, but because he was John Glenn and they find them historically significant- they are invoking ownership.
If I discovered that my A11 was issued to Douglas MacArthur and put it up for auction, would the DOD have the right to reclaim it now considering they didn’t give a shit for 80 years? Did they send letters to MacArthur asking for it back? Did they file a police report for the theft of the watch?

 

That’s interesting and good news [and makes sense] for the younger crowd coming up through the ranks. It must have changed sometime after I left active duty in 1992 [I was IRR and SELRES until 1998].

I specifically remember addressing my OIC on my last deployment about not wanting to return the G-1. He understood and told me that few pilots, if any, actually do the return. He told me to lose the G-1 on deployment and pack it away in my flyers kit bag…and report it as lost. That’s what I did and sure enough NIS [now NCIS] called me about it when I returned from deployment. I said I lost the G-1 on the boat and they said OK. So…now I stole and lied…and I didn’t particularly feel very good about it.

The only excuse that I had [which was a pretty crappy one] was that I knew that the USN issued G-1 was the mark of a Naval Aviator and if I took care of it, it could be utilized and passed down in the family. I wasn’t married at the time, but I did marry and now our grown kids have expressed much interest in the G-1.

LATE ENTRY: I was honorably discharged…Scouts Honor.

 

When I was discharged, I had to turn everything in that I was issued. If you failed to turn in something, like a piece of clothing (I kept my beret for example) you had to pay for it. No drama, just hand over the money and you are good. My only regret is not keeping my combat boots! They were awesome.

They had a checklist, and asked you to hand in things one at a time as they checked them off. It was understood that if it wasn't on the checklist, you didn't have to hand it in. That's what happened to a naval ship's diver who ended up with an issued Tudor Submariner in his possession - I bought that watch directly from him...

 

Many of the French MN Tudor Subs were officially decommissioned and it is desirable to have the decom papers because they have traditionally been considered evidence of authenticity. Unfortunately, the papers are now being commonly forged.

 

I think it's hard for people who weren't in the military to fully believe all the stories. But the fact is that the strangest things happen. And there could be a line of people waiting for orders, each with the the same "job" (MOS- military occupation specialty) and each one would have wildly varied experiences. Here's a favorite of mine.

A few of us got deployed out of Ft. Meade, Maryland for what became Desert Storm. Ft. Meade wasn't a typical infantry post so we were sent to a reception station in Kentucky, where we were issued gear, such as our M-16, as well as signed wills and insurance forms. (This is where I got my new dog tags, and with some quick on my feet thinking, told the woman making them that I was a Rastafarian, which she put on my tags for "Religion".)

So we get on buses that take us to the airport, fly commercial to Saudia Arabia. After that we get assigned to Corps. Then we keep getting reassigned until most of us are split up as we get reassigned on each leg, first a C130, then a commercial bus, then a duece and a half and finally get dumped out of a humvee at a random spot in the desert.

Point is that we had 3rd Armored Calv, an artilery unit (with no guns), a military police unit and a bunch of MI guys all temporarily assigned to the same group. (We ended up running an EPW comound to recieve and process newly captured.)

When it was all over and time to leave, long story short, we ended up having to make our own way home. We went to the airport and waited for room on any flight on one of the chartered commercial flights to the East Coast. We got to (I think) Connecticut, where we were to catch a regular commercial flight to Maryland.

The problem at this point was that we had our weapons. They didn't want to let us on board with them and we weren't going to let them out of our possession. A compromise was reached and we put the bolt carrier in our pockets, then broke down the weapon and put it in our duffle bags in cargo.

If you read this far, here is the how this relates to property. Because the Kentucky deployment center was shut down, we didn't know what to do with our gear, including the weapons. There were no records. For a brief hot second I was thinking I could keep it and no one would ever know. Then I had visions of the FBI and quickly put that out of my head. In the end, we went to the battalion training NCO who kept the small armory and turned in the weapons.

He asked for the rest of the gear, which we knew we should turn in, even if it was what we were wearing. When the guy looked at my boots and said, "what size are those?", I knew what was going to happen with all our gear. When he came to ask for my bayonet, I stared into his eyes and told him I'd lost it. I could see the gears turning in his head.

So not a great story, but perhaps a good illustration of how military property can get tracked, or not tracked.

Of course, NASA watches are a completely different story. There were few and they were prized possessions. I wouldn't equate them to my experience. For other gear, it can be chaotic.

 

Love this!