Is this watch a Seamaster?

JwRosenthal · Feb 3, 2020

K Kafue
Cannot disagree with anything you have written except this: I used VISA to pay for this watch. As previously stated, as soon as I inspected the watch (they would not allow me to take the watch over the counter until I had paid!), so the moment I saw the watch in person, I refused to accept it. Went directly to my bank & disputed the transaction. This resulted in my VISA having to be cancelled until new cards could be issued to my wife & I. In the meantime the "Dispute Process" was begun. I am now having an impossible argument with both my bank & VISA. They are saying that because I refused to take the watch, have not got it in my possession, then they will not take any action. I am not accepting this. So there is fight number 2.
As for the reasons I didn't do my due diligence?!?
Seriously, I have a very focused, even obsessive streak usually. Sometimes I will spend months studying one watch or weeks in Hong Kong or Singapore etc. visiting dozens of watch shops to study the precise detail of the watches I want, then negotiating the best price & love the process. Having said that, I also can be very impulsive when I see something unusual (who isn't!) Not that this was special in any way!
I had just done a great deal of research into 8 great watches I bought from Sotheby's in London & Antiquorum in HK so my excuse to myself is, I was tired & stupid. Very STUPID!

All logical and we all make mistakes like that- hopefully you didn’t pay too much for it if you do get stuck with it.
What I don’t understand is how Visa is giving you grief- you did not take possession of the intem, it was sold under fraudulent terms- case closed. I would escalate this just on principle at this point. No goods were received, payment should be stopped.

JwRosenthal · Feb 3, 2020

And as a point of note- there were Omega’s in the late 60’s that we’re marked Seamaster on the case back, but not on the dial. The earliest Seamasters (1948) were marked on the dial but not the back. This has neither, so I don’t know how they could make a claim on a model without some indication of that.

Walrus · Feb 3, 2020

Very true, visa and MasterCard are usually very good when you dispute something. I had someone run up 5,000 dollars in Canada buying electronics. I hadn’t been to Canada in years, they just removed the charge and told me they would take care of it. I’ve had other cases where they just drop charges even though too much time had passed. They informed me they just each the charges. They eat 100’s of millions a year. They make enough.

I just read 80% of credit card numbers have already been hacked and stolen. They are available on the dark web or whatever it’s called, they just haven’t been used yet.

Kafue · Feb 3, 2020

JwRosenthal
All logical and we all make mistakes like that- hopefully you didn’t pay too much for it if you do get stuck with it.
What I don’t understand is how Visa is giving you grief- you did not take possession of the intem, it was sold under fraudulent terms- case closed. I would escalate this just on principle at this point. No goods were received, payment should be stopped.

I have been with Amex & VISA for decades. This is the first issue I have raised with my bank & VISA & they have shoved from one call centre to another & then onto "Customer Service" then to Complaints. Even walked into the local branch with a file full of details & letters. They were supposedly forward to the "Department" 6 weeks ago. As of today, they are "Lost". Luckily I copied everything twice. Funny thing, as soon as I mentioned I had copies & would be heading back to the branch & giving them both the paperwork & some words of "encouragement!", they found the all the paperwork had gone to the wrong department. As for VISA & it's rules, let me warn all of you: VISA protects the merchant over the client. They have done all they could to send me to Consumer Protection people, which I refuse to do until they have sorted this out further. AMEX will stand by you everytime. Member with them since 1984 & they will bend over backwards.

Kafue · Feb 3, 2020

Walrus
Very true, visa and MasterCard are usually very good when you dispute something. I had someone run up 5,000 dollars in Canada buying electronics. I hadn’t been to Canada in years, they just removed the charge and told me they would take care of it. I’ve had other cases where they just drop charges even though too much time had passed. They informed me they just each the charges. They eat 100’s of millions a year. They make enough.

I just read 80% of credit card numbers have already been hacked and stolen. They are available on the dark web or whatever it’s called, they just haven’t been used yet.

Kafue · Feb 3, 2020

Stolen is different to what has occurred to me. VISA used doublespeak on me today. They said because I had not taken the goods away, then have an expert prove the item was not as advertised, VISA could not act. I then answered that "therefore conversely, are you (VISA) stating that if I go & collect the item, bring it to an expert & have it assessed as not being as advertised, VISA will reverse the transaction? The VISA reps answer: NOT necessarily!. Why: "because it must be an expert approved by the auction house! Now if that doesn't start to make you lose the plot & become angry, then you are in a coma!

Walrus · Feb 4, 2020

K Kafue
Stolen is different to what has occurred to me. VISA used doublespeak on me today. They said because I had not taken the goods away, then have an expert prove the item was not as advertised, VISA could not act. I then answered that "therefore conversely, are you (VISA) stating that if I go & collect the item, bring it to an expert & have it assessed as not being as advertised, VISA will reverse the transaction? The VISA reps answer: NOT necessarily!. Why: "because it must be an expert approved by the auction house! Now if that doesn't start to make you lose the plot & become angry, then you are in a coma!

Yes, I just threw in the fraud examples, not physically stolen cards, as an example. I just went through an issue where someone was trying to drop ship two watches, sent me two empty packages as he had to use the companies printout out and his source ran out so I ended up with two empty packages. I was ready for a big fight but first called capital one and they immediately refunded me. Just on my word. I provided no proof which I had ready.

Anyway I think suctions run differently as you are entering a legal agreement with the company. I was curious how those work myself. I actually started bidding on a Daytona through one of those online hammer type auctions but of course it went into numbers I wasn’t comfortable with. Low enough where it would have been an instant resale but all they guarantee is authenticity and that it ran not originality and you can only tell so much through pictures. I could have gotten way over my head and in trouble. I’m certainly not knowledgeable to get into that level. Anyway I hope your situation works out, I guess I’ve been lucky I’ve always had disputed charges eaten by the credit card company.

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Walrus
Yes, I just threw in the fraud examples, not physically stolen cards, as an example. I just went through an issue where someone was trying to drop ship two watches, sent me two empty packages as he had to use the companies printout out and his source ran out so I ended up with two empty packages. I was ready for a big fight but first called capital one and they immediately refunded me. Just on my word. I provided no proof which I had ready.

Anyway I think suctions run differently as you are entering a legal agreement with the company. I was curious how those work myself. I actually started bidding on a Daytona through one of those online hammer type auctions but of course it went into numbers I wasn’t comfortable with. Low enough where it would have been an instant resale but all they guarantee is authenticity and that it ran not originality and you can only tell so much through pictures. I could have gotten way over my head and in trouble. I’m certainly not knowledgeable to get into that level. Anyway I hope your situation works out, I guess I’ve been lucky I’ve always had disputed charges eaten by the credit card company.

Understand. Online auctions can be a trap! Especially if you do not set down & then stick to your own rules. (Ironic coming from me, the guy who just got taken in!) Example, when the bidding on live auctions become very heated. That is usually when I stop. Wait & see. On a few occasions the last bid is suddenly withdrawn & then leaves you as the "Winner!". There is the clue that you have been raised by a dummy bid & that is when I refuse to be involved anymore. On all of these occasions the auctioneer has then removed the last 3 bids in an attempt to make it seem as though they are being fair to you. However, it's never fair when the highest bidder has raised your bid, realises that they have forced you past your buy position & then tries to trap you anyway on your next to highest bid. How can you know when the dummy bidding started or what the real value is? Better to bail out altogether. So far no auctioneer has been able to force me to proceed in these circumstances.

Dan S · Feb 4, 2020

Sort of curious how much money we are talking about, which is really the only thing that should matter here. Never understood going crazy making claims and complaints about small potatoes. Not worth it.

sounds like the size is really the issue, since the absence of seamaster didn’t bother the op until he saw the watch was small.

Walrus · Feb 4, 2020

Dan S
Sort of curious how much money we are talking about, which is really the only thing that should matter here. Never understood going crazy making claims and complaints about small potatoes. Not worth it.

sounds like the size is really the issue, since the absence of seamaster didn’t bother the op until he saw the watch was small.

Doesn’t sound like it’s just about the money to him

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Walrus
Doesn’t sound like it’s just about the money to him

Absolutely! If you enjoy watches, sports, playing poker...the point is in the value of your time & return.
If it's all about money, hell, even the best poker players will have bad runs & loose an awful lot of money. Just dust yourself off & "cop it", then move on for the next game.
That all suddenly changes when you are cheated out of the most minor amount or, as has happened to me, you see a pro cheating the unknowing players (even though I was totally unscathed).
That is why we pay a premium & collect watches instead of just checking our iPhones or the cheap quartz movement we could own for small change.

Walrus · Feb 4, 2020

K Kafue
Absolutely! If you enjoy watches, sports, playing poker...the point is in the value of your time & return.
If it's all about money, hell, even the best poker players will have bad runs & loose an awful lot of money. Just dust yourself off & "cop it", then move on for the next game.
That all suddenly changes when you are cheated out of the most minor amount or, as has happened to me, you see a pro cheating the unknowing players (even though I was totally unscathed).
That is why we pay a premium & collect watches instead of just checking our iPhones or the cheap quartz movement we could own for small change.

I actually forget my iPhone tells time even though I’m glued to the damn thing

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Dan S
Sort of curious how much money we are talking about, which is really the only thing that should matter here. Never understood going crazy making claims and complaints about small potatoes. Not worth it.

sounds like the size is really the issue, since the absence of seamaster didn’t bother the op until he saw the watch was small.

No,, wrong its not the amount, although it was higher than the value of the gold weight or especially the genuine bracelet that really got my attention.
& yes, the size was the start of my disappointment followed by the way I was "dealt" with. For the record, I had already been in 2 other auctions with this company for a Submariner & a Frank Muller. Had been spoken to via phone calls trying to get my bids higher on both these watches, so a relationship of trust had been created. Both those deals did not go ahead because the costs were higher than exact same model watches at my regular dealers overseas.

Dan S · Feb 4, 2020

K Kafue
That all suddenly changes when you are cheated out of the most minor amount ...

Ok, if it’s worth the time and trouble to you ... it wouldn’t be for me. Especially since you bought the watch you saw in photos. Basically a noob tax IMO. I think every forum member could tell what they were looking at in about two seconds.

But if you’re convinced you’ve been cheated by the auction house and wronged by VISA, and it will make you happy to battle it out for the refund no matter how much effort it takes, then go for it.

I’ll just make a note of this for my records. 😗

Engee · Feb 4, 2020

Dan S
sounds like the size is really the issue, since the absence of seamaster didn’t bother the op until he saw the watch was small.

Aren’t the two issues linked? If the OP understood the watch to be a Seamaster then he might have reasonably assumed it to be an acceptable size. Seeing the smallness of the watch IRL and realising it therefore probably isn’t a Seamaster is why he is feeling duped.

Shabbaz · Feb 4, 2020

I dont really understand the anger towards the auction house. Yes, they described it wrong. And I do think they should refund you because of the wrong description. For newcomers it's not obvious what's wrong with a watch.

However, what I've understand, you have some experience with watches. There was'nt Seamaster on the dial. Vintage omega's were 'small' back then, especially compared to modern watches, With due dilligence you should have seen these problems. At least it should have raise some questions which you could have explore further before buying.

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Engee
Aren’t the two issues linked? If the OP understood the watch to be a Seamaster then he might have reasonably assumed it to be an acceptable size. Seeing the smallness of the watch IRL and realising it therefore probably isn’t a Seamaster is why he is feeling duped.

Thank You Sir! You have put it in a few straight forward sentences that hit the Nail on the Head!

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Dan S
Ok, if it’s worth the time and trouble to you ... it wouldn’t be for me. Especially since you bought the watch you saw in photos. Basically a noob tax IMO. I think every forum member could tell what they were looking at in about two seconds.

But if you’re convinced you’ve been cheated by the auction house and wronged by VISA, and it will make you happy to battle it out for the refund no matter how much effort it takes, then go for it.

I’ll just make a note of this for my records. 😗

You wrote: "I’ll just make a note of this for my records. 😗"

Whoa...should I be concerned? Hehehe!
My wife was at me yesterday to just let it go & move on!
I am a retired guy who is also a beekeeper. You cannot work with bees & allow yourself to be stressed or angry, they know & will react accordingly. So I am not a warrior type...
Yet we cannot change our DNA, no matter what although we try to.
I will not let this go & whatever it costs, so be it!
There are always a lot more details to every story, in other words, I am not claiming to be totally in the right here or going to pretend I am Roy Rogers about this. I screwed up. Am embarrassed, paid too much etc etc. My Due Diligence was not at it's peak due to the 23rd of December mood & the amount involved.
As we say in my world "I wear long pants & can accept news/opinions that I do not want to hear".
On this Forum I was just asking for advice from people who know Omega a LOT deeper than I.
For all the advice & responses, thank you very much.
Will it end in my favour? IMHO, 50/50.
Except for the learn factor. In that dept. I WIN!
Cheers!

Shabbaz · Feb 4, 2020

Engee
Aren’t the two issues linked? If the OP understood the watch to be a Seamaster then he might have reasonably assumed it to be an acceptable size. Seeing the smallness of the watch IRL and realising it therefore probably isn’t a Seamaster is why he is feeling duped.

What is acceptable? That's debatable. There are also seamasters with 32 or 33mm diameter. This is a 33mm SM. What's not masculine and not acceptable about it? 😉

Kafue · Feb 4, 2020

Shabbaz
What is acceptable? That's debatable. There are also seamasters with 32 or 33mm diameter. This is a 33mm SM. What's not masculine and not acceptable about it? 😉

Acceptable. So what is your point?
The watch I bid on was advertised & photographed to appear as a regular sized watch, plus as a Seamaster. It is neither. That is unacceptable.
If you buy a Hewlett Packard Computer online that states it is a specific model, has certain hard drive/graphics card etc, so you purchase it & then when you go to pick it up it is a HP case that is obviously not to the description advertised & with an unknown internal workings, is that acceptable?

Is this watch a Seamaster?

JwRosenthal

JwRosenthal

Walrus

Kafue

Kafue

Kafue

Walrus

Kafue

Dan S

Walrus

Kafue

Walrus

Kafue

Dan S

Engee

Shabbaz

Kafue

Kafue

Shabbaz

Kafue

Similar threads

Help for a seamaster omega

Is this watch an original watch?

Omega Ladies Watch Crystal Replacement Part 062PN2035

is this watch fake?

What model is this watch

Omega First Light - A Seamaster Chronograph