Community Stories

Is there any such thing as an honest frankenstein?

jolyon
Posts
138
Likes
72
This post is probably as much philosophical as it is a practical question. During my journey of searching for a vintage Speedmaster, I asked opinions on various models I found by members of this board, and one of the negative comments I encountered frequently was “it looks like it could be a franken”. Meanwhile, one positive term I have seen used to describe watches that are built from all of their own original components is that they are “honest”, even when those watches are pretty beaten up and not entirely aesthetic looking. So that has given me this feeling of stigma, that watches built up from replacement original parts are dishonest watches and undesirable - more undesirable even than a very poor condition ‘honest’ watch. Perhaps it’s the feeling of the watch being tampered with in the past which gives collectors a bad feeling of “what else has been messed with in this thing”. So that got me wondering: Is it always a bad thing for a watch to have totally original, period-correct replacement parts, but that have come from another watch, or new old stock? For example, if there is a written record of exactly what was changed out and when, with details of where the replacement components were bought from and who installed them, and maybe even a note explaining WHY they were replaced, would this still constitute a ‘dishonest’ watch with a negative stigma associated with it?
I am curious to understand the consensus on where the line exists between an honest and a dishonest watch. I would also like to know if there is an etiquette for returning a watch full of service parts back to original spec without raising eyebrows.
 
Tony C.
Posts
8,193
Likes
28,869
The expression "frankenwatch" is typically used in reference to watches that are assembled from at least some incorrect parts. A watch that, for example, had a damaged dial that was replaced with a correct dial, either NOS or taken from another watch, would not fall into the same category. It would not be factory original, of course, so the "honesty" of it would depend on how the owner or seller were to represent it.

There's no reason to feel very uncomfortable with a watch that has correct parts, even if they are not all original. Most critical collectors are willing, for example, to accept correct replacement crowns or crystals, without fretting at all. When it comes to replacement movements, it becomes trickier, as the serial numbers won't be original, and most collectors would be more queasy about such replacements. However, if a dial is both consistent with the original, and the signs of aging seen on the other components of the watch, most would be comfortable with it even though it would not be original.
 
jolyon
Posts
138
Likes
72
Tony C. Tony C.
The expression "frankenwatch" is typically used in reference to watches that are assembled from at least some incorrect parts. A watch that, for example, had a damaged dial that was replaced with a correct dial, either NOS or taken from another watch, would not fall into the same category. It would not be factory original, of course, so the "honesty" of it would depend on how the owner or seller were to represent it.

There's no reason to feel very uncomfortable with a watch that has correct parts, even if they are not all original. Most critical collectors are willing, for example, to accept correct replacement crowns or crystals, without fretting at all. When it comes to replacement movements, it becomes trickier, as the serial numbers won't be original, and most collectors would be more queasy about such replacements. However, if a dial is both consistent with the original, and the signs of aging seen on the other components of the watch, most would be comfortable with it even though it would not be original.
Thank you for clarifying this - I didn’t realise frankenwatches were built using incorrect parts
 
Peemacgee
Posts
6,597
Likes
10,176
The 'honest' watch reference describes a watch that (appears) to be as it was when it left the factory.
The condition is not particularly relevant but the term is often used about a less than sterling example as a form of compliment about an otherwise less than perfect example of a 'survivor'.

Franken watches have parts that don't belong in/on that particular reference.
Dials, hands etc
But also movements - this can mean an incorrect movt altogether e.g. a non-chronometer movement where there should be one or even a chronometer rated movement of the wrong age or wrong calibre.

Collectors like all original watches and that, alongside condition, is where the premium value lies in a vintage watch.

The Franken stigma applies to watches that were sold as original to the unsuspecting (often at a premium) but are a compiled set of parts.
 
lenndon
Posts
160
Likes
135
I was under the impression that a watch would still be considered a franken if I assembled it from spare parts, even if all of the parts were correct for that reference.

For example, finding a movement, dial, hands, and case separately over time, then putting them together into a complete watch.
 
Peemacgee
Posts
6,597
Likes
10,176
lenndon lenndon
I was under the impression that a watch would still be considered a franken if I assembled it from spare parts, even if all of the parts were correct for that reference.

For example, finding a movement, dial, hands, and case separately over time, then putting them together into a complete watch.
in principle you are absolutely correct.

The reality is that if you could find all-contemporaneous parts no one would actually know it was a franken watch. (Without an extract)

But that must be such a rare occurrence and we couldn’t even know how many ‘correct’ Frankens are out there - but it will be a tiny number.

In real life, such is the collector knowledge and scrutiny of vintage watches that incorrect watches are spotted a mile away.
 
Makesbelieve
Posts
662
Likes
5,526
These two last comments bring up an obvious loophole, what if the parts are easily spotted, but people still love it?

Look at the WatchCo Omega Seamaster 300s. They were built from scratch using genuine, modern Omega service parts built around vintage movements. They don't look like 1960s survivors at all (they look brand new), so everyone knows exactly what they are. But because they are 100% genuine Omega parts, the community treats them with way more respect than a standard 'frankenwatch' and pays a premium for them. 🙃
 
DON
Posts
2,249
Likes
1,420
If you replace a bridge from another watch from the same family. That in my opinion is not franken. No different than replacing a gear or screw.

Replacing the bridge with a serial number is as the number is not original to that particular movement or case.

Placing a movement with a different serial number into another case is as it never left the factory that way.

Hands? Some hands discontinued and a mod is then required. As long as mention. Up to the buyer to decide

I used blued steel pocket watch hands for this watch as original hands discontinued

omg6.webp
Edited:
 
Peemacgee
Posts
6,597
Likes
10,176
Makesbelieve Makesbelieve
These two last comments bring up an obvious loophole, what if the parts are easily spotted, but people still love it?

Look at the WatchCo Omega Seamaster 300s. They were built from scratch using genuine, modern Omega service parts built around vintage movements. They don't look like 1960s survivors at all (they look brand new), so everyone knows exactly what they are. But because they are 100% genuine Omega parts, the community treats them with way more respect than a standard 'frankenwatch' and pays a premium for them. 🙃
The watchco 300s are something of a one-off anomaly. (watchco being a shortcut name for all assembled 300s)

They were made up of Omega service parts and with the SL dial end up more of a homage than the real vintage thing. (you can't mistake a watchco for a vintage 300)
Presumably they use vintage movements not so much to give a flavour of vinatage authenticity but more that the service parts were made to accommodate the vintage movement.

These watches only started being sold at a premium once parts became unavailable and lovers of the style realised that, if they wanted a modern performing watch case with the vintage style they liked, numbers were now limited.

They are still frankens but a very special category of franken (simply because they became accepted for what they are)

I can't think of another put together Omega that has reached this kind of acceptance.
 
Ron_W
Posts
1,735
Likes
3,498
Dr Victor Frankenstein is the scientist and CREATOR from Mary Shelley's 1818 novel, Frankenstein; or, The Modern Prometheus.

His name is often confused with his stitched-together creation who never received a name. So a Frankenstein watch refers to the Creator, like Victor, who is a brilliant but reckless university student who unlocks the secret to life and assembles the creature from harvested parts. The creature is intelligent and eager to learn. He does kill Victors wife after being wronged by him but soit, we all have flaws.
So it is actualy a badge of honour 😁

Here are some of my creations build from original parts, or Mod`s/ modifications as a more general term. Though I wouldn`t label myself as brilliant.......reckless is quite accurate.

20260618_110531.webp 20250412_113254.webp

Referring to the monster side of things, presenting watches as "original" which have been made up from parts from different/other referrences or years ( a nice cal 321 1983xxxx popped up on Chrono24 in a 105.012 ) is of course a no-go. Not that anyone would be fooled by the Mark II on my dial 🙂 i think.
 
Fallout Boy
Posts
3,032
Likes
6,323
Some Franken are basically certified by the manufacturer: you send your watch with a radium dial (or tritium) in for servicing and get one back with Superluminova. "Speedmaster reduced" 😀 : from T SWISS T to SWISS.
And the original dial is confiscated and disposed of. Voilà!
 
pdxleaf
Posts
6,341
Likes
21,611
I think...

There are gradients of Frankenstein. The monster who is put together from parts that were never connected is a clear Frankenstein. But the man who had a heart transplant is not.

A heavily serviced watch might be called an honest Frankenstein. Consider a watch sent to Omega for service. The watch required a new crystal, crown, pushers, dial, hands, mainspring, wheels and bracelet. The manufacturer of the original watch has replaced parts with newer parts made by the same manufacturer. I don't think it would be fair to call it a Frankenstein, even if it looks similar.

One factor in accepting a Frankenstein is rarity. There are thousands, if not millions of watches. It's hard to justify making a put together watch. But a car where there may be less than five built? People will accept a car that was rebuilt with only the original vehicle id plate as being a valuable replacement if there are only a few extant cars. But not so much if there are mass production items.

It's generally considered that a Frankenstein is put together to deceive. We call put together watches mods if they are done by the owner because the owner likes a different look (I own one and it's a favorite.) But if a vintage watch has a scuffed and chipped bezel that gets replaced by a better looking vintage bezel, is that a Frankenstein? It's not done due to service, it's done for appearance. Is this also an honest Frankenstein?

Over time, there are fewer untouched original watches and there are going to be even fewer. A watch wears out and needs new parts. A perfect vintage watch probably can't keep time. Is that better than a non-original watch that has been serviced and keeps good time?

Maybe a Frankenstein watch is like porn, we can't define it but we know it when we see it.
 
sheepdoll
Posts
2,937
Likes
4,680
In the book Victor does talk about heart transplants. The creature also is fairly philosophical and claims to talk with the voices of the many who made him. What was abhorrent was it's appearance, in a society where looks were important. I think most of what is in the book came true. Sports injuries repaired with cadaver cartilage etc...

The bad brain stuff, comes from the films. Although poor Ms. Normal aka Abby gets a bum rap in a way. As I recall in Young Frankenstein. after the transfusion the creature does a quote from the book.

My feeling though is that even if the creature had a bad brain, it still had a good heart.

Personally I prefer the term Rat-watch, which is more in line with what I have. This comes from a term rat-rod, or rust-rat which is said to come from the automotive community.

I enjoy the chase for parts, which are mostly correct for a given watch. Especially parts what are somewhat past repair. Economically this is not wise. I would have been better saving the shekels and getting restoreable examples. 60 bucks for a movement. 35 bucks here and there for missing or damaged parts. 120 for a case, and there are never dials or bezels to be found. None of this even touches the taxes, shipping and handling fees, now add in tariffs; the cost are doubled.

But where then is the fun and challenge of getting a complete functional watch for a basic service.

So yeah, I consider most of my watches Honest Frankensteins.

The real problem, is that there are a lot of folk out there who's intention is to deceive. To put gold paint onto a brick. I looked into getting aftermarket parts and the fake ones cost as much or even more the real ones!

On the other hand I am deep into constructing a coil winder to make vintage quartz coils. Years ago I also took jewelry classes to learn how dials are made. Recently I have figured out how to cut out new hands from tuna can tin using a fiber laser. I tried razor blades but they warped.

George Daniels once asked me when I was going to make my watch. I probably could make a watch from scratch, but it would probably be pretty rough.

AI is going to be an issue. With the coil winder, google search no longer provides links. It wants to keep me engaged. I have found it getting involved in other searches; that I used to do when I look to see if there is new activity on certain subjects. On the surface these all look like viable options to revive some stalled projects (like upgrading a CNC or an APS film processor.)

In reality the code is buggy and takes a bit to fix some of the math where the scaling is not right or it tries to do real time floating point divides on an 8 bit processor. Width and height definitions get swapped. AI also tends to hallucinate on wrong answers, even after it is corrected.
 
Fallout Boy
Posts
3,032
Likes
6,323
Theseus-watch? 😀

In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the craft on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. Over time, various of its timbers rotted and were replaced. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: If no pieces of the original remained in the current ship, was it still the Ship of Theseus? If it was no longer the same, when had it ceased existing as the original ship? Seventeenth-century philosopher Thomas Hobbes further questioned how to consider a second ship that had been built entirely from pieces removed from the original.
 
Felix_La_PuBelle
Posts
634
Likes
3,673
Spend enough time observing how other watch enthusiasts talk about watches and use these descriptors, and you’ll pick up on a lot of subtleties around terms like “Franken” and “modded” and “authentic” and “original” and “honest.” Just stick around and it’ll become less mysterious.

Also, I wouldn’t assume there’s a single objective set of rules for evaluating a watch. I would work backwards from what you value about a particular watch and the rest will fall into place.

Case in point, I value my Japan racing dial speedy for its looks but also I wanted one that I
started its life as a 3570.40 and not a 3570.50 modded with a service part Japan racing dial. So I was willing to pay the premium for the original versus a mod.

I also like the looks of the Mitsukoshi dial and handset. However I’m not into it at the price authentic Mitsukoshis command. If I found a MODsukoski at a lower price I’d certainly consider buying one and I’d probably enjoy wearing it even more because I wouldn’t have a nagging worry about diminishing the collectible value. Knowing I had an authentic dial and handset would be enough for me, even if it didn’t start life with the case and movement it’s presented it. I just wouldn’t expect to pay an arm and a leg for it.

At the end of the day if you get a little giddy every time you look down at the watch on your wrist, you have the right watch.
 
padders
Posts
10,616
Likes
16,578
Fallout Boy Fallout Boy
Theseus-watch? 😀

In Greek mythology, Theseus, the mythical king of the city of Athens, rescued the children of Athens from King Minos after slaying the Minotaur and then escaped onto a ship going to Delos. Each year, the Athenians would commemorate this by taking the craft on a pilgrimage to Delos to honour Apollo. Over time, various of its timbers rotted and were replaced. A question was raised by ancient philosophers: If no pieces of the original remained in the current ship, was it still the Ship of Theseus? If it was no longer the same, when had it ceased existing as the original ship? Seventeenth-century philosopher Thomas Hobbes further questioned how to consider a second ship that had been built entirely from pieces removed from the original.
There’s another name for this concept in British English: Trigger’s Broom.

No parts are original!



 
22 More Posts...
Sign up or log in to reply...

Similar threads

Alphonso

Is There Such A Thing As Auto And 32mm

Alphonso Modern Omega Watches
Alphonso
Alphonso
Posts
8
Views
661
Ronstrous

Is there such a thing as a Longines 23ZSD Gis conquest?

Ronstrous Longines Watches
BlueHands
BlueHands
Posts
1
Views
1K
iamvr

One year on OF and then this Seamaster 2577 Chronometre as an "anniversary gift"

iamvr Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
TIMElyBehaviour
TIMElyBehaviour
Posts
40
Views
7K
Mauzer

Speedmaster is an honest, trustworthy seller!

Mauzer Seller Profiles & Reviews
Cuttysark
Cuttysark
Posts
1
Views
2K
Misterred

2021 is an amazing year. How I finally landed my grail Zenith A386

Misterred Zenith Watches
batts912
batts912
Posts
22
Views
6K
kenk

Is there any chance anyone knows about this 1939? Omega watch.

kenk Vintage Omega Watches Help, Discussion and Advice
kenk
kenk
Posts
7
Views
1K