"Including Original Papers" - But Unstamped/Undated Warranty Card

charleswonjun · Jul 22, 2020

Hi guys,

Need some help in understanding terminology here. I just purchased a 1998 Speedmaster Reduced on Chrono24. The item was listed as a full set - including both "original papers and box." I was pretty excited about having the original box and the warranty card stamped and dated - dated specifically as a 1998 watch.

When I received the watch today, the papers - the warranty card - had the serial and reference number, but no stamp nor date. The serial numbers on the warranty, pictogram card and watch case back nevertheless matched. It seemed like the watch was bought off the grey market many years ago.

I guess the watch was described as having "original papers" because the watch came with the physical cards. It's an old watch so I know the warranty is already invalid - so it shouldn't make a difference whether the warranty card is unstamped/undated in terms of getting the watch serviced. But it was a little disappointing to not have a warranty card that was filled out.

My question is: is it typical to list a watch as having "original papers" when the warranty was not filled out in the first place? If I buy a watch off Jomashop that comes with warranty cards that aren't signed, can I still list the watch as having original papers when I resell? I'm trying to understand if this was my fault.

Evitzee · Jul 22, 2020

You have the 'original papers', whether it was stamped or dated does not change that fact. You have the paperwork as it came from the factory, that is all that is important, and with a 22 yo watch it's not all that valuable. You have no idea of the history of your watch, maybe it's grey, maybe not, but 22 years after the fact makes that point irrelevant. Most Jomashop watches do not come with the warranty cards because they don't carry the manufacturer's warranty.

Dan S · Jul 22, 2020

IMO the listing was accurate. Papers can be stamped, filled out by hand, or blank, but they are still the original papers for that watch. It's best to ask for photos before purchasing.

Meme-Dweller · Jul 22, 2020

Original papers and warranty are different things. Like buying a used car with a title & factory warranty vs a car with a title but no factory warranty.

charleswonjun · Jul 22, 2020

Evitzee
You have the 'original papers', whether it was stamped or dated does not change that fact. You have no idea of the history of your watch, maybe it's grey, maybe not, but 22 years after the fact makes that point irrelevant. Most Jomashop watches do not come with the warranty cards because they don't carry the manufacturer's warranty.

Hmm, the times I purchased from Jomashop (Oris and Omega), I received warranty cards with the serial and reference numbers on them.

Meme-Dweller · Jul 22, 2020

charleswonjun
Hmm, the times I purchased from Jomashop (Oris and Omega), I received warranty cards with the serial and reference numbers on them.

Pictogram/Master Chronometer Cards are different from the International Warranty Card.

charleswonjun · Jul 22, 2020

Meme-Dweller
Original papers and warranty are different things. Like buying a used car with a title & factory warranty vs a car with a title but no factory warranty.

I see. Given the replies so far, it would seem okay to list an item as having original papers even though it isn't filled out. So normally, in these situations, it's the buyer's responsibility to ask whether it is stamped, right?

charleswonjun · Jul 22, 2020

Evitzee
You have the 'original papers', whether it was stamped or dated does not change that fact. You have the paperwork as it came from the factory, that is all that is important, and with a 22 yo watch it's not all that valuable. You have no idea of the history of your watch, maybe it's grey, maybe not, but 22 years after the fact makes that point irrelevant. Most Jomashop watches do not come with the warranty cards because they don't carry the manufacturer's warranty.

Can I ask then, in your opinion, is there any value to having a stamped card that is 22 years old? I thought that would add substantial value to the watch. But is that not the case generally?

Evitzee · Jul 22, 2020

charleswonjun
Can I ask then, in your opinion, is there any value to having a stamped card that is 22 years old? I thought that would add substantial value to the watch. But is that not the case generally?

The only purpose is to show where and when it was bought, it might be interesting to know but I don't think it adds any value. The paperwork is nice to have for a complete kit, but I really don't care if it is stamped or dated on an older watch.

Dan S · Jul 22, 2020

Having the whole package makes a pre-owned watch like this a little easier to sell because it adds an air of legitimacy, so it's worth having, but the actual value is probably pretty modest. Stamped, unstamped, who cares, it's not a collectible watch so people don't really care about provenance.

ChiefMark · Jul 22, 2020

Be glad you have intact serial numbers. There was a span of time where online resellers (I'm looking you, World of Watches, you miserable bastards) were selling gray-market watches with the serial numbers removed, supposedly to protect the AD's who were selling them at wholesale to keep their inventory moving.

Some people (whistles at the sky) who were in the market for their first watch bought from them, and then - 8 years later when the watch needed service, were told the serial numbers had been removed. As it was a first watch, people like that had absolutely no idea that there was supposed to be a serial number, and certainly never opened the case to look in there.

Then you're left with a watch that is really skeevy. You can still like the watch, but you're more than annoyed at the original seller.

Evitzee · Jul 22, 2020

Way back in the 60's some people were buying cameras cheap from Hong Kong (Nikon, Nikkormat, etc) and the vendors were grinding off serial numbers AND the name on the camera body for US custom avoidance.. Talk about destruction, but if you were cash strapped, or a professional photographer it was part of the game. Fortunately those days are gone.

padders · Jul 23, 2020

I am a little confused. How can the seller be sure it is a 1998 piece if the papers aren't dated? Are they going off the serial number? It is pretty unlikely they have an extract. If as it seems you bought it because 1998 has some significance to you, I think you have a right to feel a little aggrieved since it may be that the seller is just guessing.

charleswonjun · Jul 23, 2020

padders
I am a little confused. How can the seller be sure it is a 1998 piece if the papers aren't dated? Are they going off the serial number? It is pretty unlikely they have an extract.

The seller says that he looked up the serial number - production year mapping on:
https://millenarywatches.com/omega-serial-numbers/#:~:text=The%20serial%20number%20is%20normally,the%20inside%20of%20the%20watch.
He also say that he talked to a local Omega boutique and another authorized dealer to confirm the dates. I was also told by the seller that it was a common occurrence for warranty cards for Speedmaster reduced models produced between 1995-2000 were left open to be able to transfer the original warranty later on.

padders · Jul 23, 2020

Hmm. Online tables are not remotely accurate, serial by year varies with model and they can jump large ranges, the bit about speaking with a boutique sounds a little like seller bs. Post the first 4 digits here and we can tell you if it sounds right but as I say, if I bought this on the basis it was deffo 1998 I would be a little annoyed. It may well be that the year is accurate but I think that seller was playing a bit fast and loose. Has it for instance got a Tritium or Superluminova dial? If the former, it wasn't 1998 but earlier, if the latter it may be spot on or later. Every watch has 2 dates really for the purposes of birth year or anniversary or whatever, the date of production as seen on an Extract of the Archives and the date of sale as seen on the warranty card when filled in properly. Obv if you have no date on the card you can only really focus on the former since no one, inc Omega can tell when every watch was sold. The production date can be ascertained pretty accurately by interpolation with known serials or changes in the model.

Post the first part of the serial and a pic if you want, at least you may get some reassurance.

steelfish · Jul 23, 2020

I remember years back when I started collecting and realised going grey was a good way of getting a discounted piece: dealers were advertising the lack of date and name on the papers as a positive. Their take was that if you needed a service in the first few years of ownership you could back date the cards and make it in warranty.

Clearly that’s not going to apply to such an old piece now and in today’s connected world though.

in summary I think the seller has been honest in the description of full set and it wouldn’t bother me. As long as it’s not stolen and all serials match i would just enjoy it.

miramogge · Jul 23, 2020

I have bought many watches where the warranty card had a printed serial number but the date and place of sale had simply eroded away over the years. Lots of messy blue ink everywhere 😀. Had a couple checked out at omega boutiques and they could tell me where the watch had been sold originally

Evitzee · Jul 23, 2020

Whether it's 1998 or 1997 or 1999, it's an old watch. Unless the buyer wants some particular year it is immaterial whether the card is stamped and dated. No need to get wound up on the date thing. If the buyer doesn't like the blank card he can return it and look for another specimen from 1998.

steelfish · Jul 24, 2020

miramogge
I have bought many watches where the warranty card had a printed serial number but the date and place of sale had simply eroded away over the years. Lots of messy blue ink everywhere 😀. Had a couple checked out at omega boutiques and they could tell me where the watch had been sold originally

That’s interesting. If they could clearly track that back in the days of hand written details maybe the greys were BS’ing at the time. I’d not be surprised as it seemed to be an odd thing for a manufacturer not to track. Not to mention it would be a crappy thing for a buyer to do (10 year old 2254 stops and pretending you’ve only bought it a couple of months back).

I’m a big fan of electronic registration at point of sale: no badly written or smeared cards to worry about.

eldiano84 · Jul 24, 2020

C ChiefMark
Be glad you have intact serial numbers. There was a span of time where online resellers (I'm looking you, World of Watches, you miserable bastards) were selling gray-market watches with the serial numbers removed, supposedly to protect the AD's who were selling them at wholesale to keep their inventory moving.

Some people (whistles at the sky) who were in the market for their first watch bought from them, and then - 8 years later when the watch needed service, were told the serial numbers had been removed. As it was a first watch, people like that had absolutely no idea that there was supposed to be a serial number, and certainly never opened the case to look in there.

Then you're left with a watch that is really skeevy. You can still like the watch, but you're more than annoyed at the original seller.

This happened to me indirectly. Shady practice, the normal buyer has no freaking idea that the serial numbers were removed. Granted a mistake that’s fixable by showing the warranty card and papers but given the fact I moved and lost the box, I am stuck with a freaking watch that I can’t sell or service at an AD because it has no serial number. It’s just to keep them in house and a hard way to find out they have been duped.

"Including Original Papers" - But Unstamped/Undated Warranty Card

charleswonjun

Evitzee

Dan S

Meme-Dweller

charleswonjun

Meme-Dweller

charleswonjun

charleswonjun

Evitzee

Dan S

ChiefMark

Evitzee

padders

charleswonjun

padders

steelfish

miramogge

Evitzee

steelfish

eldiano84

Similar threads

Warranty card search, a rather unique request

Will Adding Tape To Warranty Card Void Warranty On Speedmaster?

SOLD PRICE RED. SOLD Rolex Sub 116610LN random serial SET w undated/unnamed card

1959 Steel Omega Seamaster Calendar w/ Original Papers & Beads of Rice Bracelet

Rolex Sea-Dweller 16600 T No Holes Blank Papers c 2008 Steel 40 mm

undated warranty card?