I'm dumbfounded. How in the hell does Seiko pull it off?

Riviera Paradise · Jan 21, 2018

Archer
The spring drive is a version of a kinetic quartz watch, but instead of charging a capacitor the rotor charges the mainspring.

That's much better Al, thanks for making the effort👍

As you well know there are also other subtle differences as well from a standard quartz watch, a standard battery operated quartz watch normally does not have an escapement mechanism to release energy from mainspring barrel, and I agree this does not necessarily make a Spring Drive "superior" to any other quartz version.

Out of all the "kinetic quartz non battery powered watches" currently offered at retail (the current Precisionist requires a battery), the Spring Drive architecture has the highest percentage of mechanical watch parts, especially when you add mechanical complications such as a chronograph Spring Drive...some appreciate that special "blend" of kinetic quartz watch and mechanical parts. Based on previous posts, I believe that clearly you are not a fan, which again you have every right not to be.

Retromlc · Jan 21, 2018

Speedy_Gonzales
If Seiko was a discount mattress store their slogan would be...OUTRAGEOUS WATCHES AT OUTRAGEOUS PRICES!!!

Or "PRICES ARE BORN HERE AND RAISED ELSEWHERE "

Archer · Jan 21, 2018

Riviera Paradise
That's much better Al, thanks for making the effort👍

As you well know there are also other subtle differences as well from a standard quartz watch, a standard battery operated quartz watch normally does not have an escapement mechanism to release energy from mainspring barrel, and I agree this does not necessarily make a Spring Drive "superior" to any other quartz version.

Out of all the "kinetic quartz non battery powered watches" currently offered at retail (the current Precisionist requires a battery), the Spring Drive architecture has the highest percentage of mechanical watch parts, especially when you add mechanical complications such as a chronograph Spring Drive...some appreciate that special "blend" of kinetic quartz watch and mechanical parts. Based on previous posts, I believe that clearly you are not a fan, which again you have every right not to be.

I'm not making any particular "effort" just stating the facts, but thanks for your approval...I guess. 😀

It's a quartz watch no doubt and yes mechanically powered - I never said it was anything different than that. It's not a particularly accurate or efficient quartz watch, which is why I characterized it as "awkward" which seems to have upset you somehow. If I look at things like power reserve, accuracy, service intervals, ease of service, etc. there are very few technical advantages to the spring drive from a practical standpoint over a good quartz watch. Again the appeal mostly comes back to the smooth sweep of the seconds hand, and the "cool" factor that some collectors feel about such a hybrid.

For those who are somewhat new to watch collecting or don't have a particular interest in vintage, they may not be aware that many types of hybrid watches have been made over the years. The old electric balance watches like the ESA Dynotron (and other similar watches made by other companies, including Seiko) are the same sort of idea, but in reverse - they use a battery to power a mechanical balance wheel. The spring drive is another take on the hybrid watch, but it still generates a current that powers the quartz crystal to do the timing. Yes it has a high percentage of mechanical parts, but so do most analogue quartz watches - they still use wheel trains, cannon pinions, hours wheels, calendar parts...they are just powered by an electric motor instead of a mainspring. There are even chronographs in traditional quartz watches that don't use a separate motor for each hand, and are driven and reset just like a regular mechanical chronograph is (cams, hammers, etc.).

You are certainly entitled to form your own conclusions about how I feel about the spring drive, but the reality is I'm neither a fan or not a fan - I'm mostly indifferent to them. But I do know what they are and what they are not.

Cheers, Al

Riviera Paradise · Jan 21, 2018

Archer
I'm not making any particular "effort" just stating the facts, but thanks for your approval...I guess. 😀

It's a quartz watch no doubt and yes mechanically powered - I never said it was anything different than that. It's not a particularly accurate or efficient quartz watch, which is why I characterized it as "awkward" which seems to have upset you somehow. If I look at things like power reserve, accuracy, service intervals, ease of service, etc. there are very few technical advantages to the spring drive from a practical standpoint over a good quartz watch. Again the appeal mostly comes back to the smooth sweep of the seconds hand, and the "cool" factor that some collectors feel about such a hybrid.

For those who are somewhat new to watch collecting or don't have a particular interest in vintage, they may not be aware that many types of hybrid watches have been made over the years. The old electric balance watches like the ESA Dynotron (and other similar watches made by other companies, including Seiko) are the same sort of idea, but in reverse - they use a battery to power a mechanical balance wheel. The spring drive is another take on the hybrid watch, but it still generates a current that powers the quartz crystal to do the timing. Yes it has a high percentage of mechanical parts, but so do most analogue quartz watches - they still use wheel trains, cannon pinions, hours wheels, calendar parts...they are just powered by an electric motor instead of a mainspring. There are even chronographs in traditional quartz watches that don't use a separate motor for each hand, and are driven and reset just like a regular mechanical chronograph is (cams, hammers, etc.).

You are certainly entitled to form your own conclusions about how I feel about the spring drive, but the reality is I'm neither a fan or not a fan - I'm mostly indifferent to them. But I do know what they are and what they are not.

Cheers, Al

Al I was not upset...I just felt some clarification was required. I did think from previous posts you were not a fan of the Spring Drive. I still think controlling the escapement via quartz regulation is a cool concept...and that it is closer to a mechanical watch than a standard quartz battery watch...the Bulova tuning fork is another concept I like.😀

Tony C. · Jan 21, 2018

@Archer

Al -

Do you have any opinions on the relative movement quality of the Seikos from the '60s? I would be more interested in the manual-wind calibers, but any insights would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Tony C.

François Pépin · Jan 21, 2018

Riviera Paradise
I still think controlling the escapement via quartz regulation is a cool concept...and that it is closer to a mechanical watch than a standard quartz battery watch...

Hi,

I do not pretend to add anything to what Al has said. He is the expert! But to me this sentence is strange: if the escapement is quartz, well, then it is a quartz watch! As Al said, quartz and battery are not necessary related and the system powoering the watch has nothing to do with the quartz question. To me, it is kind of like if you said that some cylinder watch was like a Swiss ancor watch because all the other parts were the same. The last part of the sentence could be true, but that would not change that it is a cylinder watch!

But I do not want to argue against the Sprind drive! I was interested at some point. But for me, well, it remains a quartz!

François Pépin · Jan 21, 2018

At some point, I was looking for a nice Seiko. As I prefer vintages, I looked to 1960-1970 mechanical Seikos. Several models had an appealing design to me. But I was never really convinced by the finish of the movement. Obviously, I was not expecting a VC finish for 200-600 euros watches. But for this range of price, I think there are nicer vintages out there in Swiss brands (Cyma!) or, for instance, French brands (Lip).

I have nothing against Seiko though. And I think one of there main design - the diver dayly beater one - is just not my taste. I kind of like the Grand Seiko line, and even more the Credor line. But, again, I am not totally convinced by the finish. Seiko's fans could say that for these kind of money you cannot have a high end Swiss watch, and I would agree! Perhaps my answer would be to buy a vintage VC - actually, that is what I did.

Riviera Paradise · Jan 21, 2018

François Pépin
Hi,

I do not pretend to add anything to what Al has said. He is the expert! But to me this sentence is strange: if the escapement is quartz, well, then it is a quartz watch! As Al said, quartz and battery are not necessary related and the system powoering the watch has nothing to do with the quartz question. To me, it is kind of like if you said that some cylinder watch was like a Swiss ancor watch because all the other parts were the same. The last part of the sentence could be true, but that would not change that it is a cylinder watch!

But I do not want to argue against the Sprind drive! I was interested at some point. But for me, well, it remains a quartz!

I disagree...I feel the quartz crystal being used to slow down a glide wheel is different. But no worries...call it whatever you want, mon ami😀

François Pépin · Jan 21, 2018

Riviera Paradise
I disagree...I feel the quartz crystal being used to slow down a glide wheel is different. But no worries...call it whatever you want, mon ami😀

Merci! No worries of course. Nous ne faisons que causer!

But I think that as long as the regulator is a quartz, no matter how it works, the watch belongs to the quartz escapement field. It does not mean that any quartz is the same, or that the spring drive is not a very particular quartz - I can admit that it is.

Riviera Paradise · Jan 21, 2018

François Pépin
Merci! No worries of course. Nous ne faisons que causer!

But I think that as long as the regulator is a quartz, no matter how it works, the watch belongs to the quartz escapement field. It does not mean that any quartz is the same, or that the spring drive is not a very particular quartz - I can admit that it is.

@François Pépin I agree the Spring Drive is indeed a type of quartz watch and my initial reply to you was not very clear, what I meant to say is that it is a significantly different type of quartz watch to warrant a specific classification for the movement: a mechanical-quartz movement (see below).

I think Al's follow-up definition of the Spring Drive as a kinetic quartz watch was pretty decent, but still might generate confusion ref. Seiko's Kinetic watch architecture which in some cases stores electrical energy

FTR I only intervened in the thread as I felt that some might read his initial post and get the wrong idea as to what Seiko was trying to achieve with the Spring Drive and why they chose the design path they did. I have seen confusion on watch forums where some members think that "quartz" necessarily means a battery powered watch with an electric motor driving the hands, which I referred to in my post as a "pure quartz architecture", but perhaps the correct term I should have used was "electrical (energy) quartz architecture" or perhaps "classical quartz" architecture?

So I think a good term for the Spring Drive is a mechanical-driven-quartz-regulated watch, and my understanding is that the design motivation for the Spring Drive was indeed to provide a mechanical driven architecture, i.e. not requiring electrical energy from an independent source (e.g. battery, solar power) to power the hands, offering higher precision than a mechanical watch using a traditional escapement mechanism, combined with the aesthetic of the continuous sweeping seconds hand. Indeed the only electrical current generated in a Spring Drive movement is derived from the energy stored in mainspring barrel which is used to power the magnetic braking mechanism of the glide wheel, using the the quartz circuit regulator.

My "layman" definitions below:

Mechanical Quartz (Spring Drive): uses a mechanical system to store potential energy and also transmit this potential energy to the watch hands, with the rate of energy transmission regulated by a quartz circuit, which is also powered by the mechanical system.

Classical Quartz: relies on an external electrical energy source (battery or solar, but not mechanical) to provide electrical energy for all functional aspects of the watch, e.g quartz timing and hand movement.

Kinetic Quartz: uses a mechanical system to provide electrical energy for all functional aspects of the watch, e.g quartz timing and hand movement.

Cheers,

RP

Archer · Jan 22, 2018

Tony C.
@Archer

Al -

Do you have any opinions on the relative movement quality of the Seikos from the '60s? I would be more interested in the manual-wind calibers, but any insights would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Tony C.

I'll preface this by saying I don't service many of these anymore. Part of it is related to me being too busy and wanting to reduce the scope of things I work on to be more efficient with the time I do spend at the bench. Part of it is the fact that most Seiko collectors who contact me about service stop replying when I tell them what I charge. I don't believe my prices are particularly high, but some people still believe that the price of service should somehow be related to the value of the watch...which makes no sense. I typically have to spend more time, not less on a lower grade watch to get it run well...and time is money. And by running well I don't mean holding time in just one position...

The last thing is related to availability of parts. As I mentioned previously Seiko doesn't tend to stock parts and guarantee supply for decades like the Swiss brands often do. Time spent searching for parts is not value added, so I try to avoid it as much as I can.

So in my experience, in addition to the things I've already said (unnecessarily complex in some cases) I've found that the high beat movements in particular are prone to excessive wear. It's not often I see the jewels in a pallet fork that are actually worn:

I've found the manual wind high beat movements use what I would call stronger than normal mainsprings - when you are trying to get the balance to oscillate at 36,000 vph, it takes a lot more energy than with a lower beat rate. In the high beat Seikos I've serviced, this has translated into unusual wear like the pallet fork above. Now all watch movements will wear if not serviced, and one could argue that the wear above is due to lack of service. But here is a pinion for the same movement that shows excessive wear on the pinions leaves (teeth) and these are parts that are not lubricated, so this is not the result of failed lubrication, but heavy loads:

Now I'm pretty obsessive about inspecting parts for wear, so there's a chance some watchmakers might miss this kind of wear, but for me these parts should be replaced. Tried ordering, was given back-order status, and then months later final word came back that they could not supply them.

So in summary, quirky movements, some prone to excessive wear, parts are hard to get - for many that would eliminate them from consideration, but it's up to the individual. I used to own a Series 3 Jaguar VDP with a V12, inboard brakes, and Lucas electrics...sometimes the love of an object is simply not rational...

Colour was "silver birch" and I really loved this car...but not the repair bills...

Cheers, Al

Archer · Jan 22, 2018

François Pépin
But I think that as long as the regulator is a quartz, no matter how it works, the watch belongs to the quartz escapement field. It does not mean that any quartz is the same, or that the spring drive is not a very particular quartz - I can admit that it is.

Indeed, the thing that makes it (or any) quartz watch a quartz watch is the oscillator being a quartz crystal. How it is powered or driven is sort of irrelevant to it being quartz or not. That's why it's called a spring drive and not a spring regulated or something like that...

jetkins · Jan 22, 2018

Archer
I really loved this car...but not the repair bills...

Vintage Jaguar ownership - or indeed anything powered by Joseph Lucas, Prince of Darkness - is a divine form of masochism.

Riviera Paradise · Jan 22, 2018

Archer
Indeed, the thing that makes it (or any) quartz watch a quartz watch is the oscillator being a quartz crystal. How it is powered or driven is sort of irrelevant to it being quartz or not. That's why it's called a spring drive and not a spring regulated or something like that...

Mechanical Quartz (Spring Drive): uses a mechanical system to store potential energy and also transmit this potential energy to the watch hands, with the rate of energy transmission regulated by a quartz circuit, which is also powered by the mechanical system.

Hope putting it in bold makes this look better for you😉😀.

Nice Jag BTW, used to see those in London.

Cheers,

RP

Archer · Jan 22, 2018

jetkins
Vintage Jaguar ownership - or indeed anything powered by Joseph Lucas, Prince of Darkness - is a divine form of masochism.

I would not have owned it for as long as I did if I wasn't friends with a Jaguar Master Technician...

Archer · Jan 22, 2018

Riviera Paradise
Mechanical Quartz (Spring Drive): uses a mechanical system to store potential energy and also transmit this potential energy to the watch hands, with the rate of energy transmission regulated by a quartz circuit, which is also powered by the mechanical system.

Hope putting it in bold makes this look better for you😉😀.

Nice Jag BTW, used to see those in London.

Cheers,

RP

Okay, thanks for repeating what I just said...

Tony C. · Jan 22, 2018

Thanks Al. Interesting stuff!

And "silver birch" is my kind of (understated) color.

time flies · Jan 22, 2018

Too many words.

Have fun.
-kfw

Riviera Paradise · Jan 22, 2018

Archer
Okay, thanks for repeating what I just said...

No worries, and thanks for clearing up your initial quartz statement, I just wanted to make it clear that there was no disagreement with you that the quartz regulation is a key factor...if you look through my posts on this thread I never ever stated that the Spring Drive was not a quartz based watch, I was just trying to flesh out the definition of Mechanical-Quartz...got there in the end...but it was bit of an awkward effort.😉

time flies
Have fun.

Hey, this is fun!😜😁

Archer · Jan 22, 2018

Riviera Paradise
No worries, and thanks for clearing up your initial quartz statement,

I thought my initial statement was pretty clear...

"And of course spring drive is a quartz watch, so although it's an awkward quartz watch, the accuracy is not bad for quartz but certainly not the best."

Yep...seems clear to me, but YMMV...

Cheers, Al

I'm dumbfounded. How in the hell does Seiko pull it off?

Riviera Paradise

Retromlc

Archer

Riviera Paradise

Tony C.

François Pépin

François Pépin

Riviera Paradise

François Pépin

Riviera Paradise

Archer

Archer

jetkins

Riviera Paradise

Archer

Archer

Tony C.

time flies

Riviera Paradise

Archer

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