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Archer
··Omega Qualified Watchmaker
Better for their bottom line...certainly.
Help with swapping Speedmaster Delrin brake for metal part (cal. 1861)
Better for their bottom line...certainly.
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VetPsychWars
·Better for their bottom line...certainly.
Heh yeah, a part that costs them $2 versus $3 in a watch that costs what, $3000 or more?
Tom
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerHeh yeah, a part that costs them $2 versus $3 in a watch that costs what, $3000 or more?
Tom
I’ve discussed this in detail previously, but to reiterate, the single piece plastic part replaces two machined steel parts. Even looking at costs for spare parts there is a significant savings going to the single part. Also, one less step in assembly and servicing, and one less sku.
In terms of manufacturing, to manufacture the two steels parts would take significantly longer than injection moulding the plastic part.
You believe that the plastic part is “better” but as much as Omega gives all kinds of information on movement upgrades they require watchmakers to make during servicing (even movements from the 50’s and 60’s are still getting specific part upgrades), there is not one single technical document from Omega that describes the “problem” that this plastic part solves. It is not a mandatory upgrade part for watches with closed backs that are originally equipped with the steel parts, and if this was truly a quality or performance issue, it would be made a mandatory upgrade.
In al, the hundreds of Speedmasters I’ve serviced, I’ve never encountered any problem with the steel brake or the parts that surround it. It simply ia non-issue. There are no symptoms reported on any forum or watchmaker email lists I’m on. If the steel parts caused a problem, there would be evidence of it, yet there is nothing...absolutely nothing.
If it really was a better solution, do you really think Omega would continue to use the “inferior” steel two piece brake on the models with a display back? If true, that would be the stupidest decision a watchmaking company could make.
Sorry, but the argument that this is some kind of upgrade flies in the face of any logic...but if that’s what you want to believe, be my guest.
Cheers, Al
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VetPsychWars
·If it really was a better solution, do you really think Omega would continue to use the “inferior” steel two piece brake on the models with a display back? If true, that would be the stupidest decision a watchmaking company could make.
The rumor was that the steel parts were used in the display-back watches because no one wanted to see the plastic.
Clearly you have a buttload of experience, but why would they use the Delrin part if there was no advantage? The difference in cost is clearly not relevant to them because they're using the "more expensive" part in display-back watches.
If there is no documentation for why then it's a total mystery we may never resolve.
Tom
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Owlsu
·@mercury895
I did the exact same thing as yourself about 2 years ago now, as I got more and more into Speedmasters and learnt it had the Delrin part inside I just didn't want it there so decided to swap it out.
I put a clear aftermarket case-back on mine and the Delrin part sticks out like a sore thumb even when you don't know what you're looking for - it's a gleaming overly bright translucent white lump mixed in with all the metal parts and looks really shoddy in my opinion.
I wouldn't personally have a clue how to change it over myself but luckily I live about 5 minutes away from an Omega service center and they happily changed it for me in about 10 minutes (I paid for it though, something like the cost of a case/bracelet polishing/restoration as it was the minimum thing they could charge for).
Just a tip though, use the metal part/brake lever from a cal. 861 Speedmaster rather than the part from a cal. 1863 one. The finish on the 861 part is plain steel and matches everything else in a modern Speedmaster whereas the one from a 1863 is finished in a different way and has a more polished highly finished look made to suit the whole 1863 movement with it's extra finishing.
They brought both out to me in tiny bags and I could see the 1863 part didn't match the rest of the inside of the Speedmaster as well as the 861 part did.
I did the exact same thing as yourself about 2 years ago now, as I got more and more into Speedmasters and learnt it had the Delrin part inside I just didn't want it there so decided to swap it out.
I put a clear aftermarket case-back on mine and the Delrin part sticks out like a sore thumb even when you don't know what you're looking for - it's a gleaming overly bright translucent white lump mixed in with all the metal parts and looks really shoddy in my opinion.
I wouldn't personally have a clue how to change it over myself but luckily I live about 5 minutes away from an Omega service center and they happily changed it for me in about 10 minutes (I paid for it though, something like the cost of a case/bracelet polishing/restoration as it was the minimum thing they could charge for).
Just a tip though, use the metal part/brake lever from a cal. 861 Speedmaster rather than the part from a cal. 1863 one. The finish on the 861 part is plain steel and matches everything else in a modern Speedmaster whereas the one from a 1863 is finished in a different way and has a more polished highly finished look made to suit the whole 1863 movement with it's extra finishing.
They brought both out to me in tiny bags and I could see the 1863 part didn't match the rest of the inside of the Speedmaster as well as the 861 part did.
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerThe rumor was that the steel parts were used in the display-back watches because no one wanted to see the plastic.
Clearly you have a buttload of experience, but why would they use the Delrin part if there was no advantage? The difference in cost is clearly not relevant to them because they're using the "more expensive" part in display-back watches.
If there is no documentation for why then it's a total mystery we may never resolve.
Tom
Yes, of course they use the steel version in the display back, because the plastic one looks ugly.
As I've said, it clearly has a cost advantage. Looking at the cost of spare parts as a guide, the plastic blocking lever (brake) is approx. $66 US. The steel version comes in two parts, the blocking lever yoke is also approx. $66 and the blocking lever is approx. $83 US. The plastic version is less than 50% of the steels version based on these numbers, so it is clearly a cheaper part, and they made far more closed backed Speedmasters than they did with clear case backs. So this is obviously saving Omega money.
I think part of the reason people have this misconception that the plastic part is somehow "better" (aside from Omega's marketing team), is that it's commonly called a "brake" which implies it is "stopping" a wheel. It isn't, and as noted above the proper name for this part is the blocking lever. It simply holds the chronograph wheel in place when the coupling yoke pivots back away, and stops driving the chronograph wheel. There is no "braking" action involved, and this is a very light duty part. All it does is hold the chronograph wheel (and the hand attached) in place while someone reads the elapsed time, and then they reset the chronograph.
To illustrate this, I've taken a video using the slow motion function on my phone, to show how the sequence works:
You can see here two instances of the chronograph in a running state, and being stopped by pressing the start/stop button. The coupling yoke is retracted, which stops the chronograph wheel from turning, and the blocking lever swings in to hold the chronograph wheel in place. There's no screeching halt of any fast moving parts here, and therefore there's no wear on the blocking lever or the chronograph wheel from this operation.
So since we don't see complaints that the hand won't stay in place with the watches that have the steel parts, the parts involved don't wear, and the plastic parts are most certainly cheaper, there's only on conclusion to make - this is purely a cost saving measure.
Again, if you still don't want to believe this in the face of all this evidence, that's your choice.
Cheers, Al
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M'Bob
·I think part of the reason people have this misconception that the plastic part is somehow "better" (aside from Omega's marketing team), is that it's commonly called a "brake" which implies it is "stopping" a wheel
Wouldn't care if it were better; the thing is hideous and cheap looking, disturbs the aesthetics of the rest of the movement, and that's irrespective of that fact that I hardly ever see it.
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VetPsychWars
·Again, if you still don't want to believe this in the face of all this evidence, that's your choice.
Cheers, Al
You mistake me. It's not that I don't believe, I want to understand as completely as possible.
Tom
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerYou mistake me. It's not that I don't believe, I want to understand as completely as possible.
Tom
Fair enough - I was just going by this...
Why would you want to when the Delrin is a better material? They picked it for a reason.
Tom
Cheers, Al
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mercury895
·@mercury895
I did the exact same thing as yourself about 2 years ago now, as I got more and more into Speedmasters and learnt it had the Delrin part inside I just didn't want it there so decided to swap it out.
I put a clear aftermarket case-back on mine and the Delrin part sticks out like a sore thumb even when you don't know what you're looking for - it's a gleaming overly bright translucent white lump mixed in with all the metal parts and looks really shoddy in my opinion.
I wouldn't personally have a clue how to change it over myself but luckily I live about 5 minutes away from an Omega service center and they happily changed it for me in about 10 minutes (I paid for it though, something like the cost of a case/bracelet polishing/restoration as it was the minimum thing they could charge for).
Just a tip though, use the metal part/brake lever from a cal. 861 Speedmaster rather than the part from a cal. 1863 one. The finish on the 861 part is plain steel and matches everything else in a modern Speedmaster whereas the one from a 1863 is finished in a different way and has a more polished highly finished look made to suit the whole 1863 movement with it's extra finishing.
They brought both out to me in tiny bags and I could see the 1863 part didn't match the rest of the inside of the Speedmaster as well as the 861 part did.
Thanks for the reply, Owlsu!
I had been able to find and order both the 860 blocking lever and blocking lever yoke as new old stock, so using the original parts (vs the 1863 parts) was definitely the plan. I went with the 860 parts thinking it would be cool to have part of the movement be linked back to the 60s/original non-321 movement (and because I actually hadn’t come across anywhere that sold/where I could easily buy the 1863 parts). Thanks for the heads up just the same! That is good to know that the NOS parts are better match for the modern Speedmaster—and that the swap may very well be straightforward.
Have a kickass day, Owlsu, and all the best!
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Radiozoop
·Heh yeah, a part that costs them $2 versus $3 in a watch that costs what, $3000 or more?
Tom
Economies of scale my friend. $1 saved over the millions of Speedmasters that have been manufactured is a whole lot of cash. People get stuck with that argument all the time because they're not looking at the bigger picture, i.e., the economies of scale when manufacturing so many watches.
Edit: And to add, they use the steel part in the case back Speedmaster because they can offset the price by charging more for the sapphire sandwiches, etc.
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dennisthemenace
·Economies of scale my friend. $1 saved over the millions of Speedmasters that have been manufactured is a whole lot of cash. People get stuck with that argument all the time because they're not looking at the bigger picture, i.e., the economies of scale when manufacturing so many watches.
Edit: And to add, they use the steel part in the case back Speedmaster because they can offset the price by charging more for the sapphire sandwiches, etc.
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Radiozoop
·I'd love to know where you got "the millions" number from.
Well, if we’re going to get pedantic, I’ll drop the “s” in millions. There are a metric crap-load of 1861/861 Speedmasters manufactured every year. Compiling the numbers from the early 70s until now, you get a whole lot of watches.
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dennisthemenace
·Well, if we’re going to get pedantic, I’ll drop the “s” in millions. There are a metric crap-load of 1861/861 Speedmasters manufactured every year. Compiling the numbers from the early 70s until now, you get a whole lot of watches.
Most sources say that Omega produce around 800.000 watches per annum. What percentage of that figure do you think manual wind Speedmasters make up?
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Radiozoop
·I'm not being pedantic, I would just like to know where you are getting your figures from.
Most sources say that Omega produce around 800.000 watches per annum. What percentage of that figure do you think manual wind Speedmasters make up?
I don’t have any particular source supporting my claim. I’m just making an educated guess by deducing how popular the Speedmaster is and the number of years it has been produced.
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SlCKB0Y
·Thanks for the reply, Owlsu!
I had been able to find and order both the 860 blocking lever and blocking lever yoke as new old stock, so using the original parts (vs the 1863 parts) was definitely the plan. I went with the 860 parts thinking it would be cool to have part of the movement be linked back to the 60s/original non-321 movement (and because I actually hadn’t come across anywhere that sold/where I could easily buy the 1863 parts). Thanks for the heads up just the same! That is good to know that the NOS parts are better match for the modern Speedmaster—and that the swap may very well be straightforward.
Have a kickass day, Owlsu, and all the best!
Can someone actually confirm that these two metal parts (part 1818 and 1726) for the cal 860 (not 861) are drop in replacements for the delrin parts in the cal 1861? I too am going for an exhibition case back, don’t want the plastic but also don’t want the overly decorated 1863 parts.
Maybe @Archer can advise me?
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Archer
··Omega Qualified WatchmakerS SlCKB0YCan someone actually confirm that these two metal parts (part 1818 and 1726) for the cal 860 (not 861) are drop in replacements for the delrin parts in the cal 1861? I too am going for an exhibition case back, don’t want the plastic but also don’t want the overly decorated 1863 parts.
Maybe @Archer can advise me?
Yes.
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