HELP with eBay US return

Dre · Jul 26, 2016

I'm only saying that this is a scam attempt from the seller because he was not happy since the very beginning about me returning the watch, he was really rude and lost it completely right away, accused me of being a scam and liar because I said the watch is not working properly as described. Not only that, the conversation just went out of topic and he kept saying on how I was a scam to him, it was just very hard to communicate properly with him.

I even offered to share a watchmaker cost so it would be a partial refund because he even said stuff like how his mother is dying and he doesn't have time to deal with these sort of stuff, hence the reason he's selling his stuff. But that offer was rejected right away when he told me that I was a scam again, and was trying to keep the 'perfectly working' watch and ask for some money!

I also told him to calm down and talk in a mannerly way as I'm the one who should be upset for receiving a watch like that, but he just kept ignoring my good attempts to communicate properly. That's when I opened the case in eBay, and I don't think he will consider that I was acting nicely when I did that, because he doesn't even respond nicely when I tried to talk to him nicely since the beginning.

I'm still waiting a reply from AU Post and will try to call USPS as well. So my next step of action would be going to PayPal and my CC Company used in PayPal if it comes to where USPS can't provide a signature proof right?

Really appreciate all your reply guys, I completely understand where the signature is important for all reasons that you all have stated above. But I still don't understand how the item is marked delivered and left to individual at the address, clearly that would be the seller's address right? This is the first time for me on returning something like this, and it's just still doesn't make any sense to me.

WatchVaultNYC · Jul 26, 2016

Pakiwi
You may want to think about this post. As somebody that is looking at buying, I woukd want to know the person I am dealing with is completely honest. I understand you may want to and even if I was an arse and you kept the money, you would know.
Allan

Just goes to show you anyone can read something nefarious into any post - even a post where someone says he did the right thing even when the opportunity presented itself to improperly profit without anyone knowing.

WatchVaultNYC · Jul 26, 2016

Drechristian
I'm still waiting a reply from AU Post and will try to call USPS as well. So my next step of action would be going to PayPal and my CC Company used in PayPal if it comes to where USPS can't provide a signature proof right?

Really appreciate all your reply guys, I completely understand where the signature is important for all reasons that you all have stated above. But I still don't understand how the item is marked delivered and left to individual at the address, clearly that would be the seller's address right? This is the first time for me on returning something like this, and it's just still doesn't make any sense to me.

The problem here is that postal workers make mistakes, deliver at wrong addresses, outright lies, etc which is why signatures are required. This is also Paypal and Ebay requirements, whether or not it makes sense to you - that's what you agreed to when using their service. It will be futile to rail against these rules, so at this point your credit card company is your best bet.

Back to your CC company - they are a lot friendlier than Paypal or Ebay. If you could provide a receipt of the service that was supposedly provided (mail service with signature) and that the postal company did not perform, which is why you lost Paypal/Ebay protection they may be more sympathetic to you.

gatorcpa · Jul 26, 2016

WatchVaultNYC
This is also Paypal and Ebay requirements, whether or not it makes sense to you - that's what you agreed to when using their service.

Sometimes, maybe the simplest answer is the best...

Why not send a copy of the confirmation you posted above to the seller through the eBay messaging system? If he answers "Yes", you can direct eBay to that exchange (eBay can trace all messages through their system). eBay should accept this as proof of delivery. If he says "No' or refuses to respond to the message, then you are no worse off than you are now.

Your situation is why I will never, ever, ever buy a high value item from eBay without using both Paypal and a credit card. IMO, your credit card company is the best insurance you can buy. Better than eBay, Paypal, any postal service or private delivery company.

The credit card companies will almost always take your side if you are reasonable. They know what they are doing with mail issues and scammers. They deal with it all the time in the online world.
gatorcpa

RegF · Jul 26, 2016

I still wouldn't write-off Paypal as a source of a solution.

Definitely worth a shot.

Modest_Proposal · Jul 26, 2016

The USPS requires signature confirmation in a number of different circumstances. For examples, senders in the U.S.A. can require, specifically, a "signature confirmation number". This allows them to literally see the signature given for the package by using an online link.

They can also request a "return receipt" - which requires the USPS to send the piece of paper signed by the receiver back to the sender.

In both of these cases, the sender is given direct and visual evidence that the package was signed for.

The third case is if an item is insured for a certain value (over $500, I believe) or if an international shipper required, for one reason or another, that the package be signed for. In these cases, as I understand it, the signature given by the recipient is stored internally within the USPS for private purposes. In order to access the signature from them, you would have to formally make that request to somebody up the chain at the USPS.

This is assuming that the package was actually signed for.

And yes - Paypal and Ebay both require in the cases of high value items that they can see the signature of the recipient. This is very important to them and there is no going around it. You can consider it unreasonable or asinine - but dem's the rules and they won't change it for anybody.

Dre · Jul 26, 2016

I've already sent everything that I have to eBay at the very beginning, and the answer is the same, they still need the parcel to be signed for.

Now I've just received an email from USPS for the proof of signature and sent it to ebay. The package was actually signed, they've sent me a copy of it in pdf as well. Though there's no name on the pdf copy, but it has definitely been signed for. Now I'm waiting for ebay to resolve this matter and hope I'll get my refund soon.

Ps. Thanks guys for the CC advise as well, I've contacted them and they're ready to move forward with the investigation if it comes to it. And yes I always use PayPal linked to 2 of my CCs as well!

Dre · Jul 27, 2016

I cannot fathom on how eBay works, this is just ridiculous. This is what they've replied to me,

"I am reaching out to you today in regard to the document you provided us showing that your package was signed for. We have reached out to your seller, they have not received the item you sent. When reviewing the document you provided there is no contact information for the Postal service representative that provided the document and the address on the document is the wrong address. We need you to contact the representative that provided you the documentation and have confirmable documentation sent to you. If we do not receive documentation in the next 48 hours or by July 29th 2016 we will have to close the appeal on this claim with no refund being issued. It is important that you work with us for this documentation as there are no second appeals on eBay claims."

The proof of signature apparently has an address section that needs to be filled out by the recipient according to USPS, so this is definitely a case where the seller intentionally wrote down something that is wrong and not-readable (I can't even decipher on what he even wrote there, looks like a random scratches which definitely not an address).

Screen Shot 2016-07-28 at 12.02.59 AM.png

According to USPS representative that I've just called, this email is generated from their system as a "post-only message", hence the reason of the absent of the representative details that was helping me. A "confirmable" documents means that I need to get in touch to Australia Post and they need to start a International Investigation, which would take more than 48 hours too.

And the thing that shits me the most is the way how eBay just trust the seller's word completely on how he did not receive the item and that sort of stuff? I mean, come on, if this guy is legit he would've gone to his neighbours and ask around if anyone receive or signed a parcel right? All the things that I've done, even proofing the signature at this point just doesn't mean anything for them for some reason?

I will definitely get in touch with USPS first thing in the morning, but like USPS said it would take more than 48 hours. So I'm definitely in a bit of a pickle here, has anyone ever been in this similar situation as well? I would really appreciate on any advise that can help me to get through this case and get my refund.

Larry S · Jul 27, 2016

Two lessons...Pay-Pal and Federal Express (better process, better documentation). However the USPS should help you they are pretty buttoned up.

Nobel Prize · Jul 27, 2016

Drechristian
I cannot fathom on how eBay works, this is just ridiculous. This is what they've replied to me,

"I am reaching out to you today in regard to the document you provided us showing that your package was signed for. We have reached out to your seller, they have not received the item you sent. When reviewing the document you provided there is no contact information for the Postal service representative that provided the document and the address on the document is the wrong address. We need you to contact the representative that provided you the documentation and have confirmable documentation sent to you. If we do not receive documentation in the next 48 hours or by July 29th 2016 we will have to close the appeal on this claim with no refund being issued. It is important that you work with us for this documentation as there are no second appeals on eBay claims."

The proof of signature apparently has an address section that needs to be filled out by the recipient according to USPS, so this is definitely a case where the seller intentionally wrote down something that is wrong and not-readable (I can't even decipher on what he even wrote there, looks like a random scratches which definitely not an address).

According to USPS representative that I've just called, this email is generated from their system as a "post-only message", hence the reason of the absent of the representative details that was helping me. A "confirmable" documents means that I need to get in touch to Australia Post and they need to start a International Investigation, which would take more than 48 hours too.

And the thing that shits me the most is the way how eBay just trust the seller's word completely on how he did not receive the item and that sort of stuff? I mean, come on, if this guy is legit he would've gone to his neighbours and ask around if anyone receive or signed a parcel right? All the things that I've done, even proofing the signature at this point just doesn't mean anything for them for some reason?

I will definitely get in touch with USPS first thing in the morning, but like USPS said it would take more than 48 hours. So I'm definitely in a bit of a pickle here, has anyone ever been in this similar situation as well? I would really appreciate on any advise that can help me to get through this case and get my refund.

Keep pressing uses, it's their document and you're right it is not legible.

Again, if I was eBay I would not grant a refund based on this document. I know you're frustrated and I understand why but eBay doesn't know you or the seller and Impartiality is key. It's a he said / he said situation and the documents so far don't prove the case either way.

Modest_Proposal · Jul 27, 2016

So it seems their main beef at this time is that they believe it was signed for at the wrong address. The only thing you need to be doing right now is getting the USPS to tell you exactly what address this was signed at.

Nobel Prize · Jul 27, 2016

Modest_Proposal
So it seems their main beef at this time is that they believe it was signed for at the wrong address. The only thing you need to be doing right now is getting the USPS to tell you exactly what address this was signed at.

Exactly. Don't worry about eBay, just complete the case. I don't know seeing that document who signed for what where, neither can anyone. That's the issue

blubarb · Jul 27, 2016

Contact your CC company and request an immediate charge back - this should be possible as most offer this service now. They should pull the money back from PayPal who in turn will be forced to pull it back from the seller. Charge Back is the armoured tank of the financial world and hopefully your CC company offer it.

I am curious to know, had it been insured, how the insurance side of things would play out - surely they (Aust Post in this case) would just say it has been delivered as this is what USPS is stating. You personally might be required to get some kind of Stat-Dec from the seller saying he didn't receive it - that could be interesting especially if he turns his back on you.

I could be wrong, but I don't know if you would be out of the shite here even with insurance. I think part of the problem is a slack USPS delivery system that allows a package to be signed for in such a slap-dash and deliberately ambiguous manner. This doesn't let AustPost off the hook either as they have partnered up to provide and charge for this service.

This is classic Buck passing by eBay.

AustPost and USPS need to account for their methods. As far as I can see the item was delivered and signed for. Full stop. To argue that someone might have signed for it and then ran off is possible but not probable. It's signed for its signed for - surely your responsibility stops the moment the signature is on the paper, irrespective if USPS gave it to a crook or not. Let's not discount the possibility that the delivery person could have been in a rush and for what ever reason left it at the door or elsewhere and signed the Docs himself - unlikely but possible. The point being where do you stop with the hypotheticals? I say at the moment its signed as received. Done and dusted irrespective of what the recipient says. Otherwise we end up in the world of trying to prove the unprovable. "It looks like me signature me Lud but it wasn't me I tell ya..." I don't mean to be fascicious (well maybe I do) but if a receipt end signature can be summarily dismissed like this then why bother having them?

Just my tuppence worth...

WatchVaultNYC · Jul 27, 2016

Modest_Proposal
So it seems their main beef at this time is that they believe it was signed for at the wrong address. The only thing you need to be doing right now is getting the USPS to tell you exactly what address this was signed at.

The gadget where the recipient signed from what I understand has a GPS locator, so it knows where it was signed.

Now, I've received packages before from USPS coming from abroad. They will ask you your name and have you sign. If it was delivered to the wrong person, that person would not sign. The illegible signature and address is not a valid issue. I've signed for many of these, and with a small touchscreen combined with the surface being held by the postmans hand, illegible text is inevitable.

I think at this point there are 2 possibilities:
- laziness or theft by USPS. They have done this to me before more than once - claiming a signature required package was delivered when it was not. Basically the mailman faking signatures to get better delivery performance metrics. Package arrived a few days later at my doorstep (I still didn't sign). Although my experience was not theft, you can clearly see the vector on how USPS parcel theft is possible.

- a scam by your seller. If we eliminate that someone else signed for the package (why would a neighbor do such a thing right?), and package theft as I outlined above, the only other possibility is that your seller who did not want the return in the first place is now resisting a refund.

- delivery to another address I believe is not a possibility. A neighbor would not sign for a package that was not theirs, unless it was a building with a doorman, in which case the doorman would have signed. Was it a building with a doorman?

So what to do:
1 - explain to Ebay that it is not a reasonable expectation to have legible address on the signature scan
2 - call USPS find out the GPS data on the signature, if available, send it to Ebay
3 - start prepping for the case with your credit card company

My own lesson here - DEFINITELY not shipping via USPS again. And DEFINITELY don't skip the insurance.

WatchVaultNYC · Jul 27, 2016

So, a funny thing happened after posting this. The USPS guy rang the doorbell and handed me a signature required package from Chile (it was a pair of Martu leather straps, which I love). So I took the time to interview the USPS guy about OPs situation.

So, USPS guy confirms that every time a package is scanned, the GPS coordinates are uploaded. This includes the scan where the package was signed for. So the GPS coordinates should confirm whether or not the package was scanned at another street, etc.

And yes, signing on that little gadget, tried as much as I could, is hard and what ended up being scanned was illegible

Dre · Jul 28, 2016

I called USPS earlier and asked for further information including GPS data etc, the lady that I spoke to said they won't be able to give me anything else apart from what I can see on the tracking screen in their website. She was even quite surprised when she learnt that I somehow managed to even get that scan proof of signature, all these things should be available for me anyway right? She told me that AU Post need to make an official international inquiry and they need to ask in details on what I would need.

So I called AU Post and explained the situation again, they said they've submitted an inquiry for this case. However, they said that the information that they normally get from USPS is that EXACT same scan proof of signature that I've already got, and NOTHING further. Which might not be available within eBay time frame as well. The difference is that AU Post would be able to send me the information in a 'confirmable documentation' with a letterhead, which I hope it would be sent to me in timely manner and would be acceptable by eBay.

When I called eBay and explained the situation on what is happening, all they can say was "that 48 hours is a normal timeframe to get a confirmable documentation from OUR post office", which they obviously mean USPS and NOT AU Post. This is definitely an international case and they just don't seem to care about where I'm standing from, the lady said she can't even hold the case any longer even though I've explained her on how AU Post need to submitted the request from USPS first etc. She kept insisting on saying that my proof of signature email from USPS is not confirmable and they need to be able to contact USPS representative that provided that to me directly to verify.

USPS won't be able to let me know the name of the representative that gave me the proof of signature unless it was asked by AU Post, because when I called them, they said that I would be speaking to a different person each time in the call centre. So that's the only thing USPS can give me. When I explained that to the eBay lady, she was still insisting on getting that representative name and his direct contact number, otherwise I have to wait for the confirmable documentation. Then I asked her, "can I please have your full name and direct number please so I can get in touch to you directly", she then said "I don't have any direct line, but anyone who picks up the phone here will be able to help you and it will always be different person. And I told her after that, that is the answer to her request for the name and direct line of the USPS representative who provided me the proof of signature.

So all I can do for the time being is just to prepare my case for my cc company, and wait until AU Post to get back to me. They seems to make this really hard for me for sure, and what eBay has asked is just ridiculous imo.

I've been chatting privately via messenger with one of the senior member in this forum as well, this is definitely a major loophole in the eBay model if anyone can just scrawl on the signing devices and they say they didn't get it. What would stop other people to do the same thing?

You guys have been the most helpful and I really appreciate all the help. Special thanks for that USPS guy interview 😉 I will be calling USPS again and ask about that GPS data, hopefully someone friendlier will answer the phone this time!

Larry S · Jul 28, 2016

Andre...My sympathies on your plight here and as a US citizen, I apologize for the USPS who do a remarkable job but I'd never trust them with anything valuable. Seems buying and selling on OF! F2F, Pay Pal and Fed Ex are key. All these E-Bay stories / shipping via post scare the hell out of me. I guess its "buy the seller" on E-Bay which usually means established dealers and higher prices.

I hope you get some sort of resolution here. Sounds like you found a bad seller.

wsfarrell · Jul 28, 2016

Drechristian
I cannot fathom on how eBay works, this is just ridiculous. This is what they've replied to me,

"I am reaching out to you today in regard to the document you provided us showing that your package was signed for. We have reached out to your seller, they have not received the item you sent. When reviewing the document you provided there is no contact information for the Postal service representative that provided the document and the address on the document is the wrong address. We need you to contact the representative that provided you the documentation and have confirmable documentation sent to you. If we do not receive documentation in the next 48 hours or by July 29th 2016 we will have to close the appeal on this claim with no refund being issued. It is important that you work with us for this documentation as there are no second appeals on eBay claims."

The proof of signature apparently has an address section that needs to be filled out by the recipient according to USPS, so this is definitely a case where the seller intentionally wrote down something that is wrong and not-readable (I can't even decipher on what he even wrote there, looks like a random scratches which definitely not an address).

According to USPS representative that I've just called, this email is generated from their system as a "post-only message", hence the reason of the absent of the representative details that was helping me. A "confirmable" documents means that I need to get in touch to Australia Post and they need to start a International Investigation, which would take more than 48 hours too.

And the thing that shits me the most is the way how eBay just trust the seller's word completely on how he did not receive the item and that sort of stuff? I mean, come on, if this guy is legit he would've gone to his neighbours and ask around if anyone receive or signed a parcel right? All the things that I've done, even proofing the signature at this point just doesn't mean anything for them for some reason?

I will definitely get in touch with USPS first thing in the morning, but like USPS said it would take more than 48 hours. So I'm definitely in a bit of a pickle here, has anyone ever been in this similar situation as well? I would really appreciate on any advise that can help me to get through this case and get my refund.

Address looks like "1711 J." There is a 1711 Jay Street in Olivehurst, CA.

WatchVaultNYC · Jul 28, 2016

Drechristian
I called USPS earlier and asked for further information including GPS data etc, the lady that I spoke to said they won't be able to give me anything else apart from what I can see on the tracking screen in their website. She was even quite surprised when she learnt that I somehow managed to even get that scan proof of signature, all these things should be available for me anyway right? She told me that AU Post need to make an official international inquiry and they need to ask in details on what I would need.

Clearly the lady you spoke to was mis-informed or ignorant. The proof of signature scan is easily available on the USPS website. Maybe you will be able to talk to a better informed person? I am aware that this is hard for you since you're in AU.

Drechristian
When I called eBay and explained the situation on what is happening, all they can say was "that 48 hours is a normal timeframe to get a confirmable documentation from OUR post office", which they obviously mean USPS and NOT AU Post. This is definitely an international case and they just don't seem to care about where I'm standing from, the lady said she can't even hold the case any longer even though I've explained her on how AU Post need to submitted the request from USPS first etc. She kept insisting on saying that my proof of signature email from USPS is not confirmable and they need to be able to contact USPS representative that provided that to me directly to verify.

Off the internet, I've seen this resolved in both directions:
resolved in favor of recipient http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=426406
resolved in favor of buyer http://forum.purseblog.com/threads/...item-even-with-signature-confirmation.841397/

I myself have sold tens of thousands of widgets over Ebay the last 10 years, and have never unfairly lost a case like this. But internet research apparently shows that it happens.

This tells me that the process is not cut and dried. You may (unfairly) lose.

You may have to rely on your CC company if all else fails. Many here will be interested in how it goes.

Dre · Aug 5, 2016

Hi guys,

Thought I might give you an update on this one. As this is definitely a lesson to learn for me, and I'm sure it'd be useful for everyone here as well.

I finally managed to get eBay to hold the case for another week, I had to stayed up until 4am Sydney time to be on the phone with eBay US to get this done!

So, when I finally received this letterhead from AU Post after their 'international investigation', I've forwarded the letter to eBay right away. They said that they'll request the seller for a refund, which then followed with a second email pretty much saying that the document is inadequate.

Please note that I've crossed off the seller's name and address for his privacy, I don't even know what would I care about that, but I think it's still the right thing to do. His full name and his full address are all there, so it has definitely been confirmed by both post offices that this guy signed the parcel.

Apparently it was inadequate because eBay need the letterhead document to states that the parcel has been signed by the seller. So I made another call to AU Post and they've agreed to finally sent me another one below. AU Post sounds a bit annoyed and kept saying that they've given everything, but they're willing to help me anyway after the long explanation that I've given.

eBay then got back to me again and replied the following,

"Thank you for the document but we cannot accept a forwarded e-mail. We must receive a scanned or photographed copy of a physical document on letterhead showing contact information (name, phone number, physical address).It must show that the item was delivered and signed for by your seller at their address.

We must be able to reach out and verify the document."

At this stage, after more calls to eBay, they said that the seller still hasn't received the watch, and they just need more reliable 'confirmable documentation'. They just kept changing their mind about the sort of document that they want, which is ridiculous. How is that the second one from AU Post that clearly states how they've investigated the case with USPS blablabla DELIVERED AND SIGNED to the seller, still not enough??

Long story short, I was able to obtain this document below after spending more than 2 hours of my Friday morning when I was meant to be working, including calls to eBay to make sure what they want, go the Post Office to see the Post Master which I found useless because he directed me to the call centre anyway.

A few hours later, the refund was issued right away to my credit card via PayPal. I had to cop a loss for around 320 something AUD in conversion rate because I couldn't kept the money in my PayPal wallet in USD, it was credited to my AU credit card directly. Then international phone bill for 88 AUD just to call eBay US.

Not a cheap lesson for that amount of money. But at least the seller has failed to scam me at the end. It's definitely a potential major loophole in eBay's model for every single 'high value items' returned from overseas.

Thank you all very much for all of your help and hope we can all learn from this case!

HELP with eBay US return

Dre

WatchVaultNYC

WatchVaultNYC

gatorcpa

RegF

Modest_Proposal

Dre

Dre

Larry S

Nobel Prize

Modest_Proposal

Nobel Prize

blubarb

WatchVaultNYC

WatchVaultNYC

Dre

Larry S

wsfarrell

WatchVaultNYC

Dre

Similar threads

Looking for help with Ebay

Should i return or keep? 18k honeycomb 30t2 from 1944 - have to decide fast

PSA: Warning About How Dodgy Buyers scam sellers on eBay: Swap parts, swap items, return anything and keep your money!

Help with Explorer 1655 please

Help with new case back style.

Help with ID please