Help navigating eBay transaction on a '69 Speedmaster?

[Ragazzo]

Looking to buy my first vintage watch, and I like the pre-moon Speedmasters. I posted on OF a few days ago asking for feedback on a specific listing (linked below just in case), and I got a few responses saying everything looked okay.

I messaged the seller to ask more questions about condition and accuracy, which I've copy-pasted below. The listing states "no returns," but he has good reviews and was responsive. What should I do with this?

===========eBay Message Thread============
Hello,

The description says this watch was serviced. Do you have information on how fast/slow it's running and beat error?

Also, it was hard to tell in the photos--is there discoloration under the hesalite between 11 o'clock and 1 o'clock? I circled in red in the attached photo.

Thanks,
Matt

----------------Seller Response----------------
Matt, Under a 10x power loupe it does show some minor discoloration but mainly from lighting angle. This piece was serviced in early 2023 as stated by original owner and was throughly inspected prior to listing and it is super clean and performing accurate time but I do not have documentation to support exact timing to the second or beat error.

==========eBay Listing Below===========

https://www.ebay.com/itm/276206598096

 

[ibis888]

Typically, if there isn’t proof of a full service you probably shouldn’t count on the fact that it was serviced.

I think you’ll have a better experience being patient and waiting for something good to come up here in the Private Sales section.

Spacefruit (the author of the Speedmaster 101 site and highly respected member here) appears to be putting a DO90 -69 up for sale on his “Speedmaster101 sales” Instagram account in mid May. You could reach out to him, anything he sells is typically serviced and very honest.

Edited: Apr 5, 2024

 

[Dan S]

I've never seen a thread like this. We can't buy the watch for you. Apparently you already received feedback from the forum, now you need to decide.

Frankly, if a potential buyer of a vintage watch starts asking me about precision timing and beat error, they will probably never hear from me again. What next, are you going to ask the seller if the watch is unpolished?

Edited: Apr 5, 2024

 

[Meme-Dweller]

Assuming it's not wildly different than what was described in the listing and shown in the photos, it's sort of crazy that people find "no returns" as a negative on a ~55 year old vintage watch, and then are concerned about timekeeping accuracy as if it should be used as a daily beater. The watch is basically 10 years away from qualifying for Medicare.

 

[Ragazzo]

Dan S

I've never seen a thread like this. We can't buy the watch for you. Apparently you already received feedback from the forum, now you need to decide.

Frankly, if a potential buyer of a vintage watch starts asking me about precision timing and beat error, they will probably never hear from me again. What next, are you going to ask the seller if the watch is unpolished?

I’ve never bought a vintage watch before, so I don’t really know what to look for or how to ask (other than what I’ve learned on this forum and other online resources). I figured I’d get a better read on the seller by asking some questions that required a somewhat thoughtful answer, though, which is where the timing question came from. I don’t need it to be perfect (it’s old), but I do want it to work.

I also wasn’t really sure how common the “no returns” part is. What if it shows up and loses ten minutes a day? What if I get it inspected and find water damage? I was hoping people here could weigh in on what was “normal.”

 

[Dan S]

eBay puts ridiculous restrictions on sellers if they indicate that they take returns. The last I checked, it was something like 30 days. If the watch is not as described, you can still return it. And the watch will be authenticated before you receive it.

That said, if you don't trust the seller, and you're not comfortable, don't buy it. Maybe you should wade in more slowly to vintage watch purchases with some lower value pieces. Or buy from a dealer or a retail store that takes returns for any reason.

 

[Scarecrow Boat]

Ragazzo

I also wasn’t really sure how common the “no returns” part is.

Have a read through the private sales on this forum and you’ll see that “no returns” is stated on majority of the listings. Often with the caveat “unless grossly misrepresented.” That is to say, it’s quite common. eBay has buyer protections in place so if the watch isn’t as represented, you can return it. Just don’t take advantage of that and return it because you no longer like it and/or have buyers remorse.

 

[Ragazzo]

Dan S

eBay puts ridiculous restrictions on sellers if they indicate that they take returns. The last I checked, it was something like 30 days. If the watch is not as described, you can still return it. And the watch will be authenticated before you receive it.

That said, if you don't trust the seller, and you're not comfortable, don't buy it. Maybe you should wade in more slowly to vintage watch purchases with some lower value pieces. Or buy from a dealer or a retail store that takes returns for any reason.

That makes more sense. Thanks! I’m not a bad buyer who will return something just because I changed my mind—I’m just worried about exposure to something that isn’t in the photos or description (like losing ten minutes a day). It sounds like I’d still be covered if there would be something egregiously wrong with the watch, though?

Also, I liked that the seller responded with some detail and checked the watch with a loupe (makes me think he knows what he’s doing).

You mentioned wading in with vintage watches—is there a lot of risk with them? For example, I like wine—sometimes you buy an older bottle for a couple hundred dollars, and it’s faulted. It’s literally a few hundred bucks down the drain. It’s a known risk, but I’ll buy a bunch of bottles knowing a few are going to be bad. I figured that buying watches would be different—none should be bad (unless you’re knowingly buying one for parts or restoration). But, I’m new to this, so maybe that’s not how it is?

 

[Davidt]

They’re 50 years old. Some vintage watches are dogs. Some can be seen easily from a quick visual inspection at ten paces. Others look fine at first glance but closer inspection of the details reveals its secrets.

Even seasoned collectors can buy dogs, but research and experience reduces the likelihood. As does buying from a seasoned collector or (some) dealers.

At some point you’re going to have to decide what risk level you’re comfortable with and take the plunge. Personally the watch you’ve listed doesn’t sing to me. It appears correct but isn’t attractive. That of course is subjective.
Personally, I’d keep an eye out on the private sales forum, research the sellers and strike when a good one comes up, although it will likely mean paying a slight premium

 

[ibis888]

Ragazzo

That makes more sense. Thanks! I’m not a bad buyer who will return something just because I changed my mind—I’m just worried about exposure to something that isn’t in the photos or description (like losing ten minutes a day). It sounds like I’d still be covered if there would be something egregiously wrong with the watch, though?

Also, I liked that the seller responded with some detail and checked the watch with a loupe (makes me think he knows what he’s doing).

You mentioned wading in with vintage watches—is there a lot of risk with them? For example, I like wine—sometimes you buy an older bottle for a couple hundred dollars, and it’s faulted. It’s literally a few hundred bucks down the drain. It’s a known risk, but I’ll buy a bunch of bottles knowing a few are going to be bad. I figured that buying watches would be different—none should be bad (unless you’re knowingly buying one for parts or restoration). But, I’m new to this, so maybe that’s not how it is?

I would say buying a mechanical watch is more of the issue than buying vintage. The movements are complex and need service from time to time. This should be factored into the purchase price. A Speedmaster service in the US can easily be $800+.

As with any valuable item, the more you wear the watch, the more you run the risk of damaging it and impacting it’s value.

The watch you link to seems fine, no major warning signs (in my opinion) and with eBay authenticity program you know you want be scammed. Worst case - the watch needs a service sooner than later. Personally I don’t like the lume on the eBay watch, I prefer the more yellow shades.

If you really want a fully trustworthy and worry free transaction, definitely worth reaching out to Specefruit via the forum or his Instagram (Speedmaster 101 and Speedmaster 101 Sales). Looks like he may be selling a -69 soon and it’s likely been serviced.

 

[Ragazzo]

Davidt

They’re 50 years old. Some vintage watches are dogs. Some can be seen easily from a quick visual inspection at ten paces. Others look fine at first glance but closer inspection of the details reveals its secrets.

Even seasoned collectors can buy dogs, but research and experience reduces the likelihood. As does buying from a seasoned collector or (some) dealers.

At some point you’re going to have to decide what risk level you’re comfortable with and take the plunge. Personally the watch you’ve listed doesn’t sing to me. It appears correct but isn’t attractive. That of course is subjective.
Personally, I’d keep an eye out on the private sales forum, research the sellers and strike when a good one comes up, although it will likely mean paying a slight premium

Good feedback! As far as risk goes, I’m okay if I need to get it serviced—just like owning an old car, it happens. I’m not okay with it being a lemon, and I wasn’t sure how to navigate that (except for it being obvious upon arrival and returning it).

What about the watch don’t you like? I’m learning to pick up on a few things, and I’m learning what I do and do not like, but I’m sure there are details that weren’t even on my radar.

 

[Davidt]

I like vintage watches for their character and warmth, this doesn’t have either in my opinion. Of course it could just be the pictures not doing the watch justice.

If I had a budget of $6k, I’d buy the oldest + best vintage speedy I could get for that. That would likely mean a 70’s version in great condition rather than a late 60’s in ok condition.

 

[Dan S]

There are all kinds of problems that can be hiding in a vintage watch. The wine analogy isn't bad, actually, and I basically look at buying watches the way you buy wine. Because I've spend a lot of time learning to evaluate watches, I can usually avoid the obvious bad ones, but inevitably I end up with some that have major problems because the seller/auctioneer was hiding them. Sometimes they are mechanical problems that are difficult and expensive to address, sometimes there are hidden condition/originality problems that has a big impact on value. But if it's just one or two bad ones out of ten, I take my lumps and either fix them or pass them on at a loss to someone who wants a project.

 

[Syrte]

Ragazzo, welcome to the forum. If you just joined and this is your first vintage watch, you’re not ready to buy.
Your first post suggests you’re seriously thinking you could buy right now, however, and you’re relying on the forum for a safe and immediate gratification, on a complex watch worth several thousand euros.

However there are no short cuts.
You need patience and learning- and you should plan for several weeks or months of study for your first purchases.
first read the thread “Learn how to fish”- and other suggested materials, and as @Dan S suggested maybe you should start with a less ambitious goal.

Best regards

 

[NotJackson]

Lots of good advice above. IMO it’s at least as much about buying the seller as it is about buying the watch.