Hi all,

I would appreciate any guidance or advice on the following Polerouter example that Watches of Knightsbridge (WoK) offered in their online sale this past weekend:






This piece was listed with an estimate of 1,200-1,600 GBP and the following description:

A GENTLEMAN'S STAINLESS STEEL UNIVERSAL GENEVE POLEROUTER WRIST WATCH CIRCA 1955, REF. S 20217-4 WITH GLOSS BLACK GILT CROSSHAIR DIALMovement: 17J, "bumper" automatic, cal. 138SS, signed Universal Geneve. Case: Diameter approx. 35.5mm, "lyre" lugs, screw back, signed Universal Geneve with emblem embossed on case back, numbered 1,7xx,xxx.Strap: Leather.

CONDITION REPORT Dial: Original dial in good condition, showing signs of age. Movement: Running & functioning at present, timekeeping and accuracy cannot be guaranteed. Case: In good condition, with some scratches to case back due to general use. Strap/Bracelet: In fair condition.

As mentioned, the piece did not sell, and WoK currently has it listed on Chrono24 for $1952. When converting this back to GBP and adding the 24% buyer's premium, this works out to roughly 1,267 GBP, so at the lower end of their range. Perhaps WoK would be willing to go lower given that this did not sell last weekend.

What do UG experts think of this example and what a fair price is?

The serial looks to be in range for S20217/4 Polerouters, and the dial looks original to me. I like that all of the lume is present, but am not sure how I feel about the speckling. The crown also looks original to me, and the movement is the correct one. The only question I have is regarding the stamped serial number, as some of the numbers do not look uniform - is this something to be worried about? Anything I'm overlooking?

Thank you!

 

Let us know when you decide.

 

I think if this watch checks out and I end up buying it I will decide I really like it

 

Below is a case back from an S20217-4 I owned with a similar serial number.
The numbers on the case back are very similar - note the raised S and 4 in the case reference and the fact that the first 1 in the serial is larger and clearer than the second 1.

I wonder whether the WoK Polerouter may have been relumed given the apparent difference in colour of lume between the hands and the dial and how fresh the dial lume looks.

 

Thanks for sharing that case back. The second "1" was the big issue for me, as it was smaller and less pronounced than the first "1" but it looks almost identical to yours, so that is good to know. I also was concerned that the "4" was not on the same level as the rest of the reference number, but again yours looks the same, so my fears are allayed on that front. The relume question, though, I don't have an answer for.

 

i like it. I wonder what its like in person, very hard to tell from that one photo? I tend to think it might be better in the metal, but you never know.

 

TBH, I like it too. The "speckling" is evenly spread, and I suspect that it will look less prominent to the naked eye. More like "patina".

 

My guess would be the case has been swapped at some point in its life.

1710xxx-1715xxx serials (the first in the S/H20217-4 range) almost exclusively (besides a few very questionable examples) have a single lume plot at 12 with a white painted edge to the lume circles.

Typically, the wide-spaced double lume at 12 are seen on the H-cased 20217-4, around 182xxxx serials (with "big triangle" lumed hands).
They also use this same seconds hand, with the "pointed" end rather than "flat" end seen in the earlier ranges.

My guess is the movement and dial was swapped out from an H20217-4 with the seconds hand, but kept the H/M hands from the S20217-4. But this is a total guess, and the watch still looks like a nice piece to me

 

It is a very nice polerouter. Lume may have been re-touched but it is done very conscientiously and professionally so it would not worry me one bit. Looking closely at the lume, it is perfect. Dots are round and there is no smudging. It has some ageing, so has not been done recently (if it has at all). Also, differences in lume between hands and dial is often noticed on vintages. I presume that it would be difficult to determine why that would be, but it is not always a sign of a relume. I do know that hands would often be replaced at service intervals, so that could well partly explain why there are differences in vintages. As the serials (between one and two dots at 12 is so close, i doubt very much whether it is a case swap. It is likely the it is in the middle of the transition from one style to another.

I love the dial and patina. IMHO, it is a nice one but priced on the upper end of the scale.

 

Nothing personal but when it comes to the minutiae of Polerouters, the opinion of @CafeRacer carries a great deal more weight in my eyes as he has spent many hundreds of hours studying details just like this in order to make sense of Polerouter case references and the variations within those references that correlate with serial number.

 

I've assembled a database (photographical and numerical) of just shy of 100 x S and H 20217-x polerouters (S20217-1 through H20217-8 - dial and caseback photos of each. The majority of these are S/H20217-4.
It's a small database, but enough to start seeing some real patterns and grouping characteristics according to serial number ranges.

From this I am seeing that there are at least 3 "executions" (but likely more) of S/H 20217-4 :

1) 1710xxx-1715xxx serials.
These are characterised by having "punched" lume plots (bad description, but seem to be physically punched through the dial as you can see the marks on the back of the dial). They seem to all have the white painted circles around the lume.
In addition, these only have a single lume plot at 12.
The majority also have the crosshair going through all of the text - though there also seems to be another small (tight in serial range) subgrouping that does not - I need to dig up more examples to get to the bottom of if/why this is.
"Flat" edge seconds hand.

2) 173xxxx-177xxxx serials.
These still have the same "punched" lume plots, with white circles around the lume plots.
The main difference is now the double lume plot at 12.
Crosshairs seem to only cut through the Polerouter text, not Universal Geneve or Automatic.
"Flat" edge seconds hand.

3) 18xxxxx serials (H-case)
These have the wide lume plots as per the dial in the OP photos.
No white circles around lume (maybe the markers are not punched through, though have not looked at the back of a dial to check).
Crosshairs do not cut any of the text.
Seconds hand is the "arrow" type i mentioned earlier.

There are also a couple of very late serial S case examples, and a couple of non-prefixed examples which also seem to be at the end of these bumper serials, but I have not looked into them so much since so few have surfaced.

Im not saying any of this is definitive truth - but considering the fact there are very few outliers, and those usually have something suss about them, at the moment it seems to be quite strong evidence at the moment.

Here are the photos of types 1, 2, and 3 as proposed above, in order:





I also think it is relevant to add, that I have noticed some kind of explanation circling forums that "Universal Geneve were sloppy and random with lots of differences from one watch to the next".
To be blunt, this sounds like a really lazy explanation for the differences seen.
From what I see so far, it seems to be entirely the opposite, with very distinct patterns and characteristics that are grouped in serial number ranges. Granted, this is only from studying Polerouters - but why would any company be seemingly so strict and co-ordinated with one particular line of watch and let all the others slip?
To me, it makes much more sense to assume the discrepancies have come from owners and watchmakers through use, service, repair, and incremental modification over 50+ years of use.

Apologies for the long-winded post...

 

@Mazoue , It is not meant to be belittling or criticism of anyones guess or findings but it is an opinion aimed at furthering the discussion. Just expressing my thoughts as often, what seems to blatant and obvious is missed. My conclusion is after all, well in line with @cafferacer !

 

Hello,

Can someone help me with checking this watch?

The ad said the reference of the watch is a 204607-1 but the lume plots are not correct at 12?

Redial? Or something else

Looks more like an 869111-1 dial I think

What do you guys think

 

Image of case back and serial would help ...

 

I Will add them later today, the seller Will make them for me

The movement is a calibre 69 so correct with the reference, I Will give an update

 

@CafeRacer, thank you for the comprehensive response, and thanks to everyone else for giving their opinions on this piece. I'd add that I'm a big fan of your Polerouter app, which I use to initially vet each piece I come across.

So I have two final questions for @CafeRacer:

1. It sounds as though based on your responses you would not use the dreaded term "franken" for this piece, but you also would not call it an "all original example." Given your theory on the lume plots and serial numbers, where would you put this example on the range of UG Polerouters you come across? Is this a mid-tier example?

2. I reached out to WoK and they gave me a price on the piece that is below what is listed on Chrono24. It is not necessarily cheap, but it is much cheaper than examples I've seen from top-tier U.S. dealers for examples that are nice but don't blow me away. For instance:

https://www.craftandtailored.com/co.../1956-universal-geneve-polerouter-ref-20357-2

https://shop.analogshift.com/collec.../as03394-universal-geneve-polerouter-gold-cap

So, putting yourself in my shoes, would you pull the trigger on this?

 

I like the dial, but would never accept a case back in such poor condition. But that's me.

 

Based on @CafeRacer's original response, he clearly thinks it is a frankenwatch as most of us understand the term. Swapping a dial and movement from one reference to another is about as franken as you can get.

 

I took his "still looks like a nice piece to me" at face value, but I'll let him speak for himself.

 

Im not classifying it as anything - Im saying it looks very atypical for a 171 serial S20217-4.
And my guess based on this would be that the dial and seconds hand have come from the same reference, but in a later serial range.
I could of course turn out to be wrong.