FRANCE!

Archer · Nov 19, 2015

Tony C.
This isn't a funeral or a wake at which the discussion of the victim's demise might well be inappropriate - it's a public forum.

It's no such thing - this is a privately owned and operated watch forum. There is no right to free speech here, although this forum is much freer than most watch forums in my experience. I know the mods here err on the side of letting a lot go, but I actually wish there was a "no politics/religion" rule enforced here to be honest. I come here to discuss watches, and as noted there are plenty of other places to discuss these other things.

Tony C.
Furthermore, I find the idea that it is somehow more respectful to murmur condolences than to discuss why such abhorrent violence happens, and how it might be stemmed, to be preposterous.

Not nearly as preposterous as thinking that you are going to change people's minds and firmly held beliefs, let alone solve the problem of religion/terrorism on a watch forum. You can present all the facts you want, and believe me I have been tempted to myself, but you simply won't change people's minds.

We all understand this is a big problem. Many of us understand there is no easy solution. I wish all of us understood this is not the place to work it out...

Cheers, Al

Tiny Iota · Nov 19, 2015

So what should the Open Discussion area on a watch forum be then? I see no harm in it. I have no problem reading opinions that I disagree with. I actually quite like it in fact. And I can always click on another thread if it gets too much.

Archer · Nov 19, 2015

Tiny Iota
So what should the Open Discussion area on a watch forum be then? I see no harm in it. I have no problem reading opinions that I disagree with. I actually quite like it in fact. And I can always click on another thread if it gets too much.

I have no problems with the open forum, however divisive topics like this have no place here in my opinion. So, you have just read another opinion you disagree with. 😉

I have no problems reading opinions I disagree with too, I just don't want to read about politics/religion here...

abrod520 · Nov 19, 2015

Archer
I have no problems reading opinions I disagree with too, I just don't want to read about politics/religion here...

While I understand totally where you're coming from, and am generally on the fence about the whole issue at hand, I do find it better to discuss these things with those we already have a strong common bond with - some anonymous, foaming-at-the-mouth Facebook commenter is easy to dismiss as having no useful perspective, but I'm much more likely to respect the opinions of my fellow watch nerds. Even if I haven't met any of you all in person before, I know everyone here's a smart person - and the tone of discourse in this thread (with one or two exceptions) has been far more levelheaded and respectful (despite differences in opinion) than just about anywhere else I've seen on a computer screen.

Now, that's not to say we should open threads for the purpose of beating each other about the head with our political opinions - but when a thread turns that way, I don't see the issue with it as long as nobody's disrespecting one another.

Tony C. · Nov 19, 2015

Archer
It's no such thing - this is a privately owned and operated watch forum. There is no right to free speech here, although this forum is much freer than most watch forums in my experience. I know the mods here err on the side of letting a lot go, but I actually wish there was a "no politics/religion" rule enforced here to be honest. I come here to discuss watches, and as noted there are plenty of other places to discuss these other things.

I appreciate your input, Al, but...

a) who said anything about there being a right to free speech on this forum?

b) the fact that the Mods have allowed this type of discussion to unfold is to their great credit, in my view

c) you and others are, of course, free to ignore or abandon threads that are not to your liking or taste

Not nearly as preposterous as thinking that you are going to change people's minds and firmly held beliefs, let alone solve the problem of religion/terrorism on a watch forum. You can present all the facts you want, and believe me I have been tempted to myself, but you simply won't change people's minds.

That's red herring #2. I am not expecting to change minds, or solve problems. However, offering alternative views and facts that may provoke thought is a step in the direction of finding solutions.

Cheers,

Tony C,

Archer · Nov 19, 2015

Tony C.
c) you and others are, of course, free to ignore or abandon threads that are not to your liking or taste

Yep - saw this one coming...done.

dennisthemenace · Nov 19, 2015

STANDY
I bought this when I was playing rugby in France in the 90s

You had obviously drunk way too much Pernod.

Mouse_at_Large · Nov 19, 2015

A few years ago, I was a mod on an online game forum with an open discussion section. I had a basic rule of thumb - respectfully discuss the issue, not the poster.

Compared to that bearpit, this place is sweetness and light - long may it continue 😎

Nobel Prize · Nov 19, 2015

Because I can have a somewhat temperamental reaction to some posts I make my best effort to take breaks when things get heated. I understand the view of this thread being exclusivelly support based, but as it goes in different directions I have to admit I also see Tony's point of view. If support translated only to anger and revenge (quite naturally) why not allow it to lead us to constructive criticism. Indeed it is true that there was a terrorist attack (2 actually) in Lebanon leading to Paris and it is not being addressed at all, and it is also true that the loss of innocent lives on one end of the equation (substantially more lives) is always overlooked

On the refugee's being 99% males of military age: 99%, really? where is that statistic from?

but most importantly, mostly all mass exodus of this kind a primarily lead by males in good health and of "military age" for the simple reason that not everyone can endure the boat rides, mountain hikes, hunger and strife. Normally elder members and younger members of the family are left behind until a secure place is found by the initial refugee. That is very normal. More importantly, if the implication is that there is an organized movement to send military personnel masquerading as refugees (and 99% of them at that) I think that one would be pretty easy to detect on th intelligence circles. There may be some, but that does not make the plea of the refugees any less legitimate.

Going back to the Irish example:

Ireland had the IRA, a terrorist group that killed innocent people along what they considered legitimate targets....(just like ISIS)
One can therefore surmise:

1- All Irish are terrorists
2- Or all Irish Catholics are Terrorists
3- Or all Catholics are terrorists

Out of millions of Islam followers on several countries there is a number of them that follow the same pattern...let's say ISIL
Syria had ISIS, a terrorist group that killed innocent people along what they considered legitimate targets...(just like IRA OR ETA)
One can therefore surmise

1- All Syrians are Terrorists
2- All Syrian Muslims are terrorists
3- all Muslims are terrorists.

One of the above statements seems to hold true for a large number of people, the other is so preposterous it will seem almost offensive...think about it.

ulackfocus · Nov 19, 2015

I know how to end all violence on Earth - eradicate EVERY human. Wait.....that would leave animals killing other animals for survival. Okay, eliminate ALL life on Earth. Voila!

.......um, wait....... I guess that would be wrong too.

Okay, how about we lobotomize everyone? ............alright, maybe not.

Drug everyone? ........... hmmm, skip that - too THX1138-esque.

cicindela · Nov 19, 2015

U ulackfocus
I know how to end all violence on Earth - eradicate EVERY human. Wait.....that would leave animals killing other animals for survival. Okay, eliminate ALL life on Earth. Voila!

.......um, wait....... I guess that would be wrong too.

Okay, how about we lobotomize everyone? ............alright, maybe not.

Drug everyone? ........... hmmm, skip that - too THX1138-esque.

Yes it's times like this one has to ask, what would Thierry do?

🙄

abrod520 · Nov 19, 2015

U ulackfocus
Okay, how about we lobotomize everyone? ............alright, maybe not.

Guess I'll have to break the news, that I got no mind to lose....

ONEWATCH · Nov 19, 2015

U ulackfocus
I know how to end all violence on Earth - eradicate EVERY human.

No need to do this on purpose. We will do it soon enough just by our collective idiocy.

Tire-comedon · Nov 19, 2015

Tony C.
I find all of these "not the time or place" comments to be absolutely mystifying.

This isn't a funeral or a wake at which the discussion of the victim's demise might well be inappropriate - it's a public forum. Furthermore, I find the idea that it is somehow more respectful to murmur condolences than to discuss why such abhorrent violence happens, and how it might be stemmed, to be preposterous.

Finally, I'll say it yet again: In 2014 there were over 17,000 - seventeen thousand - Shia civilians killed in Iraq, a high percentage by the brutal hands of ISIS.

Given that fact, why are those victims apparently ignored by those who are so sensitive to the loss of a tiny fraction of people in France? And to those of you who claim that you are sensitive to the horrors continue unabated in Iraq, when, exactly, would be a the "right" time to discuss the issue?

Dear sir,
As a Frenchman living Paris, I read this thread from a specific angle, I admit.
I reacted to the first post probably under the shock caused by the news. Since then, I've read many opinions, some with which I agree, some not, but did not post more.
To a certain level, one can wonder if a watch forum is the right place to discuss such a topic as the reasons justifying killing more than 100 persons or if it could/should have been avoided, the extent a nation deserves what it endured. I am of the opinion it is not the right place, but I respect others' opinions and don't feel affected if such discussion takes place.

Things are very different with your statement.

Although this forum may, to a certain extent, be open to some public, you can't ignore the composition of its audience and participants. Unless I missed the point, I think the initial purpose was to express sympathy to French hit by this tragedy, because a certain number of my compatriots are members here, not because this forum addresses views on this war and terrorism. That's probably why this thread did not address Syrians who were also killed : they deserve no less support but this watch forum is obviously not the place for this.
Reducing 130 killed to 'a tiny portion of people in France' who attract a disproportionate level of sympathy compared to tens of thousands killed elsewhere is just disrespectful, probably here and certainly now. The dead ones were living people whether Shia or French, not statistics, and compassion has nothing to do with quantities.

ulackfocus · Nov 19, 2015

Nobel Prize
99%, really? where is that statistic from?

83% of all statistics are made up.

gatorcpa · Nov 19, 2015

There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies and statistics.
Mark Twain

http://www.twainquotes.com/Statistics.html

gatorcpa

dennisthemenace · Nov 19, 2015

U ulackfocus
83% of all statistics are made up.

100% of passengers murdered on a flight taking holiday passengers back to Russia must be one of the statistics that isn't then.

gatorcpa · Nov 19, 2015

dennisthemenace
100% of passengers murdered on a flight taking holiday passengers back to Russia must be one of the statistics that isn't then.

Stop it!

You know better.

Time to get real people.
gatorcpa

UncleBuck · Nov 19, 2015

Tire-comedon
the initial purpose was to express sympathy to French hit by this tragedy

I posted early and wanted to convey this exact thought.

I have no quarrel with any of the views expressed, my views shall remain private.

I have always felt that you are free to express your opinions/convictions under the open conversation forum.
We have 18 forum categories and only one is "open conversation", I don't feel we are straying from our intent.

I was only disappointed that we hijacked the thread and turned it into something else.
Hijacking is a mischievous, sometimes irritating and often humorous trait of this forum and while not always agreeing, I applaud our freedom and tolerance to do just that.

I just wish the world was as accepting and tolerant as we are.

Let's finish where we started!

arkstfan · Nov 19, 2015

I pray for all those hurt and harmed and pray for a change that ends people thinking doing such is beneficial.

FRANCE!

Archer

Tiny Iota

Archer

abrod520

Tony C.

Archer

dennisthemenace

Mouse_at_Large

Nobel Prize

ulackfocus

cicindela

abrod520

ONEWATCH

Tire-comedon

ulackfocus

gatorcpa

dennisthemenace

gatorcpa

UncleBuck

arkstfan

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