Ed White: is it a crime?

Archer · Mar 10, 2021

JwRosenthal
The watch is not “as it came” from the factory, but it has a factory replacement case of exactly the same vintage....is that heresy?

Very few watches are “as it came” from the factory. Hands are routinely replaced, as are crowns, pushers, etc.

If you bought the watch new, and stuck it in a drawer, never taking it for service, that is an example of an “original” watch.

As for your specific scenario, it’s not heresy in my view, but something that should be disclosed if you sell it.

JwRosenthal · Mar 10, 2021

Archer
Very few watches are “as it came” from the factory. Hands are routinely replaced, as are crowns, pushers, etc.

If you bought the watch new, and stuck it in a drawer, never taking it for service, that is an example of an “original” watch.

As for your specific scenario, it’s not heresy in my view, but something that should be disclosed if you sell it.

If I ever sell it, the buyer can have the gouged case with it- I doubt they will put it back to “factory”.

Darlinboy · Mar 10, 2021

Both bezels are correct. Neither can be proved original to either watch.

Swap all you want. 👍

Observer · Mar 10, 2021

Archer
Sorry, not following. When Omega assembled the watch initially, it would have been with original parts...those are by definition the original parts.

I assume that the bezel, or any other part, is sitting right next to an essentially identical bezel which Omega would have been just as happy to use on the same watch. It wouldn’t matter to Omega, me, or the universe if those two bezels were switched then, and I don’t think it matters now. As long as the wear matches, would anyone ever know? Obviously many people feel differently.

Archer · Mar 10, 2021

Observer
I assume that the bezel, or any other part, is sitting right next to an essentially identical bezel which Omega would have been just as happy to use on the same watch. It wouldn’t matter to Omega, me, or the universe if those two bezels were switched then, and I don’t think it matters now. As long as the wear matches, would anyone ever know? Obviously many people feel differently.

Unclear what “assembly” scenario you are referring to.

Are you talking about during a service or when the watch was made initially? If it’s the latter, no matter what bezel is put on, nothing was “switched”...the bezel that goes on is the original bezel by definition.

The reason I make this distinction is because people refer to “original” parts all the time, but no one knows if they are original...

Archer · Mar 10, 2021

JwRosenthal
If I ever sell it, the buyer can have the gouged case with it- I doubt they will put it back to “factory”.

Of course, but that’s not the point of disclosing it, at least for me.

Foo2rama · Mar 10, 2021

The watch is correct. It is no more incorrect then a watch that got an in period correct bezel replacement.

Toishome · Mar 10, 2021

No need to have a guilty conscience. These are all original Omega parts and they are period correct. That would be good enough for me.

Pinoysurf · Mar 10, 2021

Is there an example of a Speedmaster with completely original parts? No replacement parts.

Archer · Mar 10, 2021

Pinoysurf
Is there an example of a Speedmaster with completely original parts? No replacement parts.

Yes, one collector here has several that are NOS never worn with tags on them...

Observer · Mar 10, 2021

Archer
Unclear what “assembly” scenario you are referring to.

Are you talking about during a service or when the watch was made initially? If it’s the latter, no matter what bezel is put on, nothing was “switched”...the bezel that goes on is the original bezel by definition.

The reason I make this distinction is because people refer to “original” parts all the time, but no one knows if they are original...

I see the ambiguity there. I’m talking about the pieces that were interchangeable at the time of manufacture.

M'Bob · Mar 11, 2021

Observer
I see the ambiguity there. I’m talking about the pieces that were interchangeable at the time of manufacture.

That’s the way I look at it. If they were likely in the same bin, at the same time, and one could have been used as easily as the other, then a swap later is okay.

Archer · Mar 11, 2021

Observer
I see the ambiguity there. I’m talking about the pieces that were interchangeable at the time of manufacture.

Yes, I agree with that completely. This is where the tricky part comes in...

M'Bob
That’s the way I look at it. If they were likely in the same bin, at the same time, and one could have been used as easily as the other, then a swap later is okay.

Is there an issue with making a swap? No, not in my view, but I also believe that it should be disclosed if sold.

But of course there are contradictions on this forum certainly when it comes to things like this. No one seems to see a bezel swap as a big deal, and some may not even deem it worthy of disclosure. But at the same time I've seen threads here where someone will post a watch, typically at a dealer being advertised as "original", and ask for opinions. In some of those threads the guys who track watches and serial numbers jump in and show evidence that the watch was bought from eBay 6 months earlier, and had different hands/bezel/whatever on it. In those instances, the consensus is "dealer bad!" for saying it's all original when parts have been swapped, but in this thread it seems to be a "who cares" situation.

So clearly some people see this in a different way than is being portrayed in this thread. Maybe it's because this is just a bezel, but what about other parts?

As a watchmaker trying to understand what "collectors" want, the "rules" can be confusing. 😀

BTW this isn't the only contradiction - I recall another member once asking about the advice given often that if you don't know the service history of a vintage watch, you should get it serviced immediately. Yet many of those same people sell "service history unknown" watches in the sales forums.

M'Bob · Mar 11, 2021

Archer
but I also believe that it should be disclosed if sold.

And I agree, provided at the time I ever decide to sell it, I still have enough wits in place to recall that I did it.

Edit: I would also add, and this just applies to me: given the circumstances I’ve outlined above, and the swap I’ve made - if someone failed to disclose that to me, I would not be upset if I ever found out.

Screwbacks · Mar 11, 2021

somebody in OF must have conspired with you.😁

cvalue13 · Mar 11, 2021

Forgive the ignorance, but at the time of manufacture is there not also a “bin” of movements to place in a case?

Or is there a way that during manufacture bezels are more fungible to a specific watch?

I guess put differently: as to the rationale put forward above RE bezels being arbitrary at time of manufacture, is this same rationale not true of every component?

Archer · Mar 11, 2021

cvalue13
Forgive the ignorance, but at the time of manufacture is there not also a “bin” of movements to place in a case?

Or is there a way that during manufacture bezels are more fungible to a specific watch?

I guess put differently: as to the rationale put forward above RE bezels being arbitrary at time of manufacture, is this same rationale not true of every component?

Good question. When watches are made, there will be a "run" of a specific model. So today the people doing the assembly will be making Speedmasters, and maybe next week it will be Seamasters. So on the watch model/type level, you won't be assembling a Speedmaster one minute, and a Seamaster chronograph the next. So the movement will be specific to the model - I only bring this up because the same movement can be used in different models.

But for everything else, the answer is basically - yes. All the parts that go into the watch are completely interchangeable at the time it is made.

So another scenario I've been thinking of when this was stated:

Observer
If Omega wouldn’t have cared when assembling the watch, why would we now?

What parts does this apply to? Just bezels? Hands? What situation would make this attitude not apply?

I'm thinking of someone who has their father's watch, and the inside of the case back is marked up showing all the services that were done when your father owned the watch. It goes in for service, and the watchmaker services several watches at a time (something often talked about here) and they inadvertently swap case backs with another model of the same watch. The case back is in the same condition, but now the history is gone. Does that matter?

It's an interesting discussion.

JwRosenthal · Mar 11, 2021

This conversation reminds me of this commercial- parts is parts

simonsays · Mar 11, 2021

This is an interesting discussion and does highlight the inconsistency of watch collectors as individuals and the general consensus of forums.

Things you can change and disclosure not needed(like for like period correct)

Bezel
Crown
Any movement part EXCEPT the bridge with serial number
Hands

Things you can change without anyone noticing but disclosure maybe expected

Mid Case
Caseback
Dial
Relume of original hands

Once any of these things have been changed it is not coeval or original. Is this important?

Well it is nicer to have a perfect watch that has never been used, but I would prefer a cosmetically beautiful watch with correct replacement vintage parts to a dog rough all original. I think 90% here would agree.

I have had a lovely watch called 'not authentic' by a respected member because of a dial change(period correct original part) I think this is a bit harsh!

M'Bob · Mar 11, 2021

simonsays
I have had a lovely watch called 'not authentic' by a respected member because of a dial change(period correct original part) I think this is a bit harsh

Technically, it may not be ‘authentic,’ but the question is, does it matter, especially to you, as the owner?

We collectors throw a lot of terms around, often not well-defined. For instance, “period correct.” What are the parameters of the “period?” The same year? The same reference number? It’s fun getting immersed in this kind of arcana, because it diverts us from confronting our mortality, and the meaninglessness of our existence. I mean, just to end on an up-beat note...

Ed White: is it a crime?

Archer

JwRosenthal

Darlinboy

Observer

Archer

Archer

Foo2rama

Toishome

Pinoysurf

Archer

Observer

M'Bob

Archer

M'Bob

Screwbacks

cvalue13

Archer

JwRosenthal

simonsays

M'Bob

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