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eBay watch authentication... didn't take long for an issue to come up (missing parts).

sgrossma
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
I hope you are sharing this saga with every watch forum you can possibly post to. This is exactly the type of situation that all of us feared- no recourse when it comes to the authenticators and you are SOL.
If the entire watch collecting community addresses their collective chagrin with eBay (I can’t think of any collector who is in favor of this- it was clearly designed for the uneducated luxury watch buyer) then they’ll either have to change course or risk losing a very large share of their market.

Yeah, that is what I was hoping to do by sharing this story. $700 lost to me sucks, but can even be small in the scheme of things.
The last thing any of us need is some random guy messing with the vintage 50 year old $20,000 watches we sell or buy on ebay.

Dan S Dan S
If they shipped it to you with the bracelet, they should have photographic evidence.
Agree, I am going to keep harrasing them about it until I can get more answers.
Also, I noticed not only is the bracelet gone, but the spare links and tool as well.
 
sgrossma
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If you get a sketchy authenticator, who is to stop them from swapping out a movement of a watch even? Is the entire process videotaped? Or just photographed?
 
connieseamaster
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sgrossma sgrossma
If you get a sketchy authenticator, who is to stop them from swapping out a movement of a watch even? Is the entire process videotaped? Or just photographed?

Not unlike that recent thread where someone between the watch owner and Omega switched out the original caseback of the watch. At least in that case, the OP was able to go in person to raise holy hell until their case back was returned
 
Archer
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sgrossma sgrossma
If you get a sketchy authenticator, who is to stop them from swapping out a movement of a watch even?

Just going to say that swapping out a movement with some other random movement, is an extremely complex job. This is the sort of claim that goes along with absurdities like "the watchmaker might steal the jewels from your movement!" when the labour to do so would far exceed the value of the jewels, which are a few bucks each brand new. It's fantasy...

That being said, I hope you get your bracelet.

Cheers, Al
 
JwRosenthal
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Archer Archer
Just going to say that swapping out a movement with some other random movement, is an extremely complex job. This is the sort of claim that goes along with absurdities like "the watchmaker might steal the jewels from your movement!" when the labour to do so would far exceed the value of the jewels, which are a few bucks each brand new. It's fantasy...

That being said, I hope you get your bracelet.

Cheers, Al
Agreed- I don’t think a vendor would risk losing a contract that large or damaging their reputation by doing something so flagrant. The hazard, I think, is in the volume they are doing (most likely with a quota or turnaround time mandated), and the perils of rushing through a job can bring- like damaging a case back or crimping a seal. Not to mention the loss of accessories or parts under the workbench (links, factory tools, small spare parts, etc), that are found later when cleaning up and they have no clue which box they came from.
 
sgrossma
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Archer Archer
Just going to say that swapping out a movement with some other random movement, is an extremely complex job. This is the sort of claim that goes along with absurdities like "the watchmaker might steal the jewels from your movement!" when the labour to do so would far exceed the value of the jewels, which are a few bucks each brand new. It's fantasy...

That being said, I hope you get your bracelet.

Cheers, Al

LOL. Okay, fair point. But I don't see why it isn't beyond the realm of possibilities to take a modern Rolex movement which is worth a few thousand easy and install a $250 Asian clone movement. I get that it doesn't usually work like that in most cases.

It was an exaggeration and a 'what if'. But there are a lot of what ifs that can happen behind opaque closed doors.
 
airansun
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Seriously messed up. In your position, I would be unspeakably furious. You’d think that eBay would jump on this, given their investment in this new program.

@sgrossma : Let eBay know about this thread and the others you start.

I’m done with eBay, I think. This will only make my New Year’s resolution easier to keep: no more watches!
 
Archer
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sgrossma sgrossma
LOL. Okay, fair point. But I don't see why it isn't beyond the realm of possibilities to take a modern Rolex movement which is worth a few thousand easy and install a $250 Asian clone movement. I get that it doesn't usually work like that in most cases.

It was an exaggeration and a 'what if'. But there are a lot of what ifs that can happen behind opaque closed doors.

I'm sure when something like this happens, all kinds of ideas are going through your head as a result. I don't know what authenticator this went to (apparently more than one are being used) but the one I am aware of (Stoll & Co.) are very unlikely to risk their reputations pulling this sort of theft. In fact I can't imagine anyone who has likely gone through a ton of hoops to get this gig (which is easy money compared to actually repairing and servicing watches) would risk it for a few thousand here or there.

This is most likely something getting lost in the process. That doesn't make it any better for you, but I seriously doubt someone is secretly pocketing things, because as this thread illustrates, it would come to light pretty quickly.

Cheers, Al
 
sgrossma
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Archer Archer
I'm sure when something like this happens, all kinds of ideas are going through your head as a result. I don't know what authenticator this went to (apparently more than one are being used) but the one I am aware of (Stoll & Co.) are very unlikely to risk their reputations pulling this sort of theft. In fact I can't imagine anyone who has likely gone through a ton of hoops to get this gig (which is easy money compared to actually repairing and servicing watches) would risk it for a few thousand here or there.

This is most likely something getting lost in the process. That doesn't make it any better for you, but I seriously doubt someone is secretly pocketing things, because as this thread illustrates, it would come to light pretty quickly.

Cheers, Al
I completely agree with you.
The most likely scenario is it was misplaced (and probably will be the most common issue). But being as this is only my second transaction since they instituted this policy, it is not a good sign of things to come.

From the customer perspective eBay has provided virtually no details on how this process really works.
- How do experts get matched with specific brands, if at all. Especially with vintage. I know it is easy to spot a genuine swiss movement. But surely not all watchmakers know all the intricacies of bezels, dials, crowns, cases etc.?
- Who is authenticating
- How do they authenticate
- How to they make sure no parts are lost (my case)
- How do they document / record what they are they doing
- How much time do they spend with a watch
- What happens when a watch breaks after authentication and it is shipped out (probably buyer is screwed). The packaging they use is minimal at best. (I usually double box everything).

You have more knowledge than 99% of people about these processes or what they might entail (you even have some knowledge of the authenticators it seems), but when you don't tell the customer anything about what you are doing, it is easy to imagine horrible scenarios.

And of course if you lie, steal, or cheat 100% of the time, you will surely get caught very quickly. But that doesn't mean there isn't any room at all for foul play, especially when mega dollars can be involved. That was the only point I was trying to make.
Edited:
 
Dan S
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The possibilities for accidental loss and damage are already bad enough without even having to speculate about deliberate theft (which will probably be extremely rare). As I implied above, I had imagined a lot of bad scenarios involving damage to the watch, scratched case-backs, etc. But now that you have mentioned it, the loss of accessories is obviously a major concern. Yes, they can be expensive, but even more problematic is the fact that sometimes they are irreplaceable (e.g original warranty papers).
 
JwRosenthal
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Dan S Dan S
The possibilities for accidental loss and damage are already bad enough without even having to speculate about deliberate theft (which will probably be extremely rare). As I implied above, I had imagined a lot of bad scenarios involving damage to the watch, scratched case-backs, etc. But now that you have mentioned it, the loss of accessories is obviously a major concern. Yes, they can be expensive, but even more problematic is the fact that sometimes they are irreplaceable (e.g original warranty papers).
Or how about an original crown wrapped in tissue in the box. Seller knows it’s there, buyer knows to look for it- inspector has no clue and throws it away with the packing material when they put the watch in a pretty new $1 “it’s been inspected” cardboard box. There are way too many ways this can go badly- I hadn’t even thought of these variables until this thread.
Until this process gets ironed out by eBay and their inspectors- it may behoove anyone buying or selling watches over $2k on eBay to be very commutative with the other party about taking thorough pictures of all accessories and parts, putting them in baggies or small boxes (like jewelry boxes) that are clearly marked, and perhaps even a packing list with all parts and accessories (and photograph that).
We can all scream doomsday and sling shit at eBay, but they are necessary in our hobby and solutions to the problems will serve us all well.
Let’s use this as a cautionary tale and keep our fingers crossed that the inspectors have a lost and found box where the OP’s bracelet ended up.
 
cvalue13
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I’m a *lite* observer of the sneaker world - which is living through its own version of this eBay authentication program growing pains.

It’s interesting to see the differences between the watch and sneaker world, and the resulting differences in concerns regarding the eBay program. For just one example: “fake” sneakers can often be of equal or even better quality than “legit” sneakers, and so the role of eBay’s authenticators is arguably complicated.

But, what is shared by both the sneaker and watch world regarding the eBay program is trepidation on the part of those most informed about their respective hobbies.

For what it’s worth, know that the sneaker community is having equally critical discussions...
 
JwRosenthal
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cvalue13 cvalue13
I’m a *lite* observer of the sneaker world - which is living through its own version of this eBay authentication program growing pains.

It’s interesting to see the differences between the watch and sneaker world, and the resulting differences in concerns regarding the eBay program. For just one example: “fake” sneakers can often be of equal or even better quality than “legit” sneakers, and so the role of eBay’s authenticators is arguably complicated.

But, what is shared by both the sneaker and watch world regarding the eBay program is trepidation on the part of those most informed about their respective hobbies.

For what it’s worth, know that the sneaker community is having equally critical discussions...
I could imagine! Factory packaging and box condition, stickers and hang tags on the shoes when listed but off or missing when it arrives, extra laces can go missing...if they are as nuts as we are- I can see them being upset.
 
sgrossma
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Another very interesting point that hasn’t been mentioned yet:

They are quietly cataloging serials numbers for thousands and thousands of watches - could be hundreds of thousands over the course of a year and millions over several years (I don’t have the sales data).

What’s going to happen when someone reports a watch stolen months or years later? If this database becomes productive, they will know who has it and who sold it.

I see this as both a good and bad thing.

But very interesting....

Imagine a world in which Rolex paid to gain access to the list to determine who is flipping new watches?
 
SkunkPrince
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JwRosenthal JwRosenthal
it may behoove anyone buying or selling watches over $2k on eBay to be very commutative with the other party about taking thorough pictures of all accessories and parts, putting them in baggies or small boxes (like jewelry boxes) that are clearly marked, and perhaps even a packing list with all parts and accessories (and photograph that).
There is no reason a person can't send accessories and parts separately. I'll wager eBay doesn't care about that... only about the watch itself.
 
Archer
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sgrossma sgrossma
I completely agree with you.
The most likely scenario is it was misplaced (and probably will be the most common issue). But being as this is only my second transaction since they instituted this policy, it is not a good sign of things to come.

From the customer perspective eBay has provided virtually no details on how this process really works.
- How do experts get matched with specific brands, if at all. Especially with vintage. I know it is easy to spot a genuine swiss movement. But surely not all watchmakers know all the intricacies of bezels, dials, crowns, cases etc.?
- Who is authenticating
- How do they authenticate
- How to they make sure no parts are lost (my case)
- How do they document / record what they are they doing
- How much time do they spend with a watch
- What happens when a watch breaks after authentication and it is shipped out (probably buyer is screwed). The packaging they use is minimal at best. (I usually double box everything).

You have more knowledge than 99% of people about these processes or what they might entail (you even have some knowledge of the authenticators it seems), but when you don't tell the customer anything about what you are doing, it is easy to imagine horrible scenarios.

And of course if you lie, steal, or cheat 100% of the time, you will surely get caught very quickly. But that doesn't mean there isn't any room at all for foul play, especially when mega dollars can be involved. That was the only point I was trying to make.

Your reply reads as if you might believe I am somehow defending this program, or the companies involved. Just to be clear, I’m not. I’m only saying that this is unlikely to be theft as has been suggested, and it’s likely just a simple lost item or items.

I hesitate to use the old “Occam’s razor” thing, because that is often used erroneously, but I think it applies here.

Cheers, Al
 
SkunkPrince
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Archer Archer
I hesitate to use the old “Occam’s razor” thing, because that is often used erroneously, but I think it applies here.
Never attribute to malice anything that can be explained by incompetence.

I agree with Al.
 
Bill Sohne
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SkunkPrince SkunkPrince
Never attribute to malice anything that can be explained by incompetence.

I agree with Al.

Hi everyone

I bet ebay did not set up a set of standard operating procedures SAP ....

As example ebay should have instructed sellers ....
1) sellers need to CREATE a packing list of ALL ITEMS SENT. And clearly bag it.

2) first thing done at the authentication station , open box , confirm all contents via seller included packing list and document it.

The above should have been in place at kick off ....

I would love to have seen ebay PIM ( product information manual ) on this program.


Just a two second thought.

Good hunting

Bill
 
sgrossma
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Darlinboy Darlinboy
Are we really surprised?
newspaper.jpg

This is proof! I knew it!
In all seriousness though, the intent of sharing my story was simply to bring light to many of the flaws of this program (already discussed), which are now being experienced in a real life situation. It likely can and will happen to many of you, over time, if things don't change.

I'm sorry if my 'what ifs' sounded ridiculous.
The fact is a lot can go wrong when you insert a middle man to intercept and handle expensive and rare items of any kind, for the reasons already outlined above. That's all.
 
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