Does reluming a watch hurt the value?

tikkathree · Jul 2, 2018

ANALOGUE
Hi!
Imho it depends. What condition the lume is today is one factor. Is it already relumed and perhaps poorely so, a good matching (non glowing) relume can increase the value. Is the lume in bad original condition I would say that it depends on the watch itself and its value. A very expensive Sub or Speedy, I believe a relume will decrease the value a lot, but if it is a cheaper watch I would say it does not affect the price negatively. If the lume is in good original condition it will obviously be a terrible idea... 😉

And there we have it. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Eeek!

Doesn't it also depend on the potential buyer and whether they crave originality and the patina of time or whether they crave a cool looking watch? I can hear the alternative sales pitches now......

I know some/many of you guys are sticklers for originality in your Speedmasters but what percentage of the global watch market do we represent?

padders · Jul 2, 2018

henrikaa
If done well and right by a skilled individual, exactly matching the lume color on the rest of the watch AND period-correct materials are being used for it, I see no issue. It requires full disclosure in the event of a sale, though!

Period correct materials are not used though in most cases, especially not when radium was originally involved. Show me a watch recently relumed with radium. Or active tritium for that matter. Relumers, even the best use inert pigments (paint basically) or compounds which phosphoresce under UV only and approximate decayed lume. They are correct only on colour of fade and very often not even that. Everything is a trade off.

henrikaa · Jul 3, 2018

padders
Period correct materials are not used though in most cases, especially not when radium was originally involved. Show me a watch recently relumed with radium. Or active tritium for that matter. Relumers, even the best use inert pigments (paint basically) or compounds which phosphoresce under UV only and approximate decayed lume. They are correct only on colour of fade and very often not even that. Everything is a trade off.

It would be a tough job to show you that, if the info was not disclosed at a sale - I think you know that already. Especially if the relume was done with a sense for detail; sourcing a handset containing period correct material in the right color, having the radium/tritium compound scratched out of the old handset and reapplied to the hands intended for reluming.

ANALOGUE · Jul 3, 2018

tikkathree
And there we have it. Maybe it will and maybe it won't. Eeek!

Doesn't it also depend on the potential buyer and whether they crave originality and the patina of time or whether they crave a cool looking watch? I can hear the alternative sales pitches now......

I know some/many of you guys are sticklers for originality in your Speedmasters but what percentage of the global watch market do we represent?

Yes there are seldome clear cut answers.

In general I would say that a relume hurt the value, but if it is already relumed that value destruction have already been taking place. Then a nice relume can add value. If the original lume looks like shit it is still not obvious that a nice relume ad value. So, in general a relume destroy value but in some cases it does not 😀

blubarb · Jul 3, 2018

kingsrider
What are your opinions on a relume of these hands?. They may be original but I think the charcoal color is looks dirty and unappealing.

I would leave them as is - personally I like them, but it is a personal decision at the end of the day.

STANDY · Jul 3, 2018

kingsrider
What are your opinions on a relume of these hands?. They may be original but I think the charcoal color is looks dirty and unappealing.

Hands are a different story.
Buy spare set of old hands and replace at least you can keep the hands you have.
Hope this tip is handy

Tony C. · Jul 3, 2018

Handy Dandy chart...

OBVIOUS relume = damaged values; the greater the value of the watch, the greater the relative damage

SENSITIVE relume (i.e. "hmmm, could be original...", yet detectible) = little if any damage to values, and probable increases to lower/mid range watches; possible increase OR damage to value or high-end watches, depending on the state of the original lume, and/or detection methods employed

OUTSTANDING relume (i.e. superior color, and texture) = certain increase to values of lower/mid-range watches; increases in value of high-end watches, with the exception of those subject to serious testing (e.g. radium), which may have their values damaged

FLAWLESS relume (i.e. superior color, texture, and period correct chemical composition) = certain increase in value across the board

footnotes

yes, high-end re-lumers do, at times, use radium

yes, tests for radium are done with increasing frequency, and often kill deals (for expensive watches) or lower asking prices

no, smartphone apps are not necessarily an accurate gauge of the presence of radium, as they lack the sensitivity of purpose-built radiation detectors

Faz · Jul 3, 2018

Ok...here's an exercise .

These two extremely rare and valuable watches. Please focus on the dial and hands.

For the sake of this exercise, let's use the case, bezel, pusher and crown of the first watch presented as a benchmark.

Let's assume this example is a well executed relume..

1- would you pay more or less than for the watch below?

2- Will collectors give a higher value to the watch below?

3- What do you feel the results would be at auction?

...I reiterate...please focus on dial and hands..using the case of the first watch as a benchmark

sjg22 · Jul 3, 2018

1. I’d personally pay more for the 1st example with well-executed relume.

2. Hard to say - the second is rarer with original lume, but the original lume is unattractive so.... I would say the majority of collectors would prefer the 1st example.

3. I believe the 1st example would out-perform example 2 at auction by a reasonable margin.

Northernman · Jul 3, 2018

ras47
I have never seen a decent re-lume job myself. It destroys the watch's value. Even getting a dial or hands replaced by an official RSC hurts collector value.

They exist. That’s why you haven’t seen them.

X350 XJR · Jul 3, 2018

Why do people freak out every time there is a story about a newly discovered rash of deaths due to radon poising from vintage radium watch dials?

bazamu · Jul 3, 2018

I personally do not have an issue if it fixes a problem / enhances the overall attractiveness and is disclosed upon sale. I've had this discussion a few times with fellow collectors and I think you'll see the vintage watch market follow the precedent set by the vintage car market. We've already seen supply begin to dry up for collectible brands / references, and inevitably a rare watch that's been professionally (and I use that strictly, only top-tier work) restored to original specs / appearance will be acceptable to the market.

Full dial re-lumes are a different ballgame than touching up hands or maybe one damaged plot, however. For example, my blue Tudor Sub was purchased with holes in the hand lume, and after sending it to the best restoration shop in the US, it came back looking absolutely perfect (from a vintage enthusiast's standpoint). In my opinion, the re-lume added value in this case.

Now, a more relevant case would a Rodania Geometer that I'm currently having the hands re-lumed on (see bottom left in the picture below). Does replacing the original radium lume affect value negatively? Perhaps. But what would I rather look at on a daily basis? Dirty, dark lume that's original or creamy lume that perfectly matches the dial plots? The answer is pretty simple for me.

dodo44 · Jul 3, 2018

I have kids and I am always mindful of which hand I am holding them with if I wear a radium dial. I would definitely prefer to have my dials re-lumed if it could be done properly. Over time, radium will turn all those creamy patinas into black gunk.

padders · Jul 3, 2018

X350 XJR
Why do people freak out every time there is a story about a newly discovered rash of deaths due to radon poising from vintage radium watch dials?

Umm they don't because it doesn't happen? Do I get a cookie?

kingsrider · Jul 3, 2018

Did Mark Twain say "The rumours of my death have been greatly exaggerated?"

Mark Twain responded:

I can understand perfectly how the report of my illness got about, I have even heard on good authority that I was dead. [A cousin] was ill in London two or three weeks ago, but is well now. The report of my illness great out of his illness,. The report of my death was an exaggeration.

hanky6 · Jul 3, 2018

ChicagoFrog
I personally do not have an issue if it fixes a problem / enhances the overall attractiveness and is disclosed upon sale. I've had this discussion a few times with fellow collectors and I think you'll see the vintage watch market follow the precedent set by the vintage car market. We've already seen supply begin to dry up for collectible brands / references, and inevitably a rare watch that's been professionally (and I use that strictly, only top-tier work) restored to original specs / appearance will be acceptable to the market.

Full dial re-lumes are a different ballgame than touching up hands or maybe one damaged plot, however. For example, my blue Tudor Sub was purchased with holes in the hand lume, and after sending it to the best restoration shop in the US, it came back looking absolutely perfect (from a vintage enthusiast's standpoint). In my opinion, the re-lume added value in this case.

Now, a more relevant case would a Rodania Geometer that I'm currently having the hands re-lumed on (see bottom left in the picture below). Does replacing the original radium lume affect value negatively? Perhaps. But what would I rather look at on a daily basis? Dirty, dark lume that's original or creamy lume that perfectly matches the dial plots? The answer is pretty simple for me.

Sorry to deviate from the subject, but very cool Rodania watches. Are they similar to Speedmasters more than by the looks, is the movement Lemania based?

Radiumpassion · Jul 3, 2018

A relume job on the dial hurts the value in my opinion...

BenBagbag · Jul 3, 2018

Radiumpassion
A relume job on the dial hurts the value in my opinion...

So says @Radiumpassion! 😒

😁

eatabagel · Jul 3, 2018

BenBagbag
So says @Radiumpassion! 😒

😁

And for the counter-point, now we await response from user Superluminovapassion.

Professor · Jul 3, 2018

After giving it some thought the only time I'd consider re-luming a vintage watch would be if it were a divers or pilots watch that I intended to make practical use of for its intended purpose.

The average lume of modern watches is hardly worth the effort anyway. It just doesn't hold a charge long enough to bother with. I've found that if you have a penlight handy, especially an LED type these can charge a depleted lume in a few seconds and the lume may stay useful for twenty minutes or more but thats about it.
Due to vision problems my indoor lights are kept at a level that has no effect on modern lumes.

The Radium dots of my small Westclox wristwatch have begun to crumble and fall off behind the crystal. I may open it up in the future to replace its lost second hand and remove the remnants, if so I'll take precautions.

Does reluming a watch hurt the value?

tikkathree

padders

henrikaa

ANALOGUE

blubarb

STANDY

Tony C.

Faz

sjg22

Northernman

X350 XJR

bazamu

dodo44

padders

kingsrider

hanky6

Radiumpassion

BenBagbag

eatabagel

Professor

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