Does rarity change our aesthetic sensibility?

M'Bob · Jan 18, 2022

lightweight
Due to its iconic status and the amount of divers that are inspired by it (or outright copied) the watch can look a little plain. So when people tell me that a Submariner is their grail or that they love the design of the watch I tend to think that their aesthetic sensibilities have been warped by rarity

First, thanks for sharing your insights and your palpable enthusiasm.

I was captivated by vintage Rolex before Omega, so I’m not in any “us or they” club regarding the two brands. Rather than plain, I find the Submariner design quite understated and very appealing, particularly the flat-lug iterations, like the ref. 5508 below. So, unlike may watches in the current line, I think these really do hold up aesthetically, irregardless or price or rarity, and regardless that irregardless in not a word…

Sherbie · Jan 18, 2022

J joe band
so... safe to say, she's not in the market for a 176.007?

You must be a clairvoyant !

Nope, she isnt, and she certainly doesnt like my battered, tarnished and brassed beater !

lightweight · Jan 18, 2022

Archer
Certainly not a "lightweight" first post - welcome.

I agree with what you are saying, but the Sub really isn't rare. There are millions of them out there, both used and new, that can be bought at any time (if you have the money). So this is artificial, or perceived rarity, as opposed to actual rarity, as both Nobel Prize and Dgercp have both talked about. I see it as "unattainable to many" rather than "rare"...

Cheers, Al

I totally agree. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic lets just say for the sake of my post the distinction of real vs artificial scarcity, and actual vs perceived rarity is not important. What I am concerned with is the way that rarity can affect desirability and change perceptions of aesthetic value. What is important to me is the way that people who I have talked to (who see a submariner as rare) talk about the watch. Not the actual rarity.

P.S. Thanks for the warm welcome 😀 Hope to be spending a bunch of time here!

Cheers

lightweight · Jan 18, 2022

M'Bob
First, thanks for sharing your insights and your palpable enthusiasm.

Rather than plain, I find the Submariner design quite understated and very appealing, particularly the flat-lug iterations...

Point well taken. It exposes my ignorance of submariners and definitely my ignorance of the deep back catalogue. Why is it that you think the aesthetics of flat lug subs stand up regardless of rarity, while the asthetics of racing dials are tied more closely to rarity?

Archer · Jan 18, 2022

lightweight
I totally agree. In the interest of keeping this thread on topic lets just say for the sake of my post the distinction of real vs artificial scarcity, and actual vs perceived rarity is not important. What I am concerned with is the way that rarity can affect desirability and change perceptions of aesthetic value. What is important to me is the way that people who I have talked to (who see a submariner as rare) talk about the watch. Not the actual rarity.

P.S. Thanks for the warm welcome 😀 Hope to be spending a bunch of time here!

Cheers

I see what you are referring to as more hype than rarity, so for me that is a very different thing. I think different motives drive the desire for a hyped piece compared to a rare piece. Many rare pieces aren’t really desirable or valuable.

Cheers, Al

M'Bob · Jan 18, 2022

lightweight
Why is it that you think the aesthetics of flat lug subs stand up regardless of rarity, while the asthetics of racing dials are tied more closely to rarity?

Classic design features vs. more of an acquired taste due to more disparate line elements and color variation. Just my opinion, though.

gyromiterob · Jan 18, 2022

pdxleaf
Alaska was a tricky one. Like you,i couldn't decide if I liked it. It grew on me and almost boughtvone several times a couple years ago. While i was looking slowly forca good one with box and papers, Eugene told the whole bloody world aboutvhow great they are so now i will never afford one.

Just curious, who's the "Eugene" referenced here?

M'Bob · Jan 18, 2022

gyromiterob
Just curious, who's the "Eugene" referenced here?

My guess?

@eugeneandresson

stonestone · Jan 18, 2022

Looks like racing dial Speedies are more desirable than ever to some collectors. This result just in from the Antiquorum Monaco sale.

Screwbacks · Jan 18, 2022

there are many facets of watches, vintage or otherwise, being in the realm of rarities. limited edition may be the modern concept of rare watches, yet being vintage is already rare itself.😉

Nobel Prize · Jan 18, 2022

To me limited edition are limited, not rare. It’s limited by design. Now a couple of decades when that limited series is also imposible to find then it will be rare

pdxleaf · Jan 19, 2022

Nobel Prize
To me limited edition are limited, not rare. It’s limited by design. Now a couple of decades when that limited series is also imposible to find then it will be rare

Perhaps. But something is rare when it does not often appear, right? Whether rarity means there are only 5 of the thing in existence or 2000, if it is limited, that means it does not often appear. A LE is a manufactured scarcity, as opposed to a scarcity that comes from few extant or few available because they have all been grabbed up in collections.

Maybe a limited edition scarcity is not held in as high a regard as a true rare item that occurs naturally, but it still seems that a LE can create a rare item, at least in the way most watch people use the word. It might be argued that there aren't many really rare watches when they were mass produced. But it doesn't seem like watch people use the term rarity to describe 1 or 5 remaining items. The way rarity was used to describe the racing speedmaster, it was more like scarcity or limited. Is it really rare if you could buy half dozen right away if you had the money? Scarcity does seem to be a better word than rare, especially for limited editions.

In either case, when there's only one clear marble out of a hundred marbles, everyone will want clear one.

Nobel Prize · Jan 19, 2022

pdxleaf
Perhaps. But something is rare when it does not often appear, right? Whether rarity means there are only 5 of the thing in existence or 2000, if it is limited, that means it does not often appear. A LE is a manufactured scarcity, as opposed to a scarcity that comes from few extant or few available because they have all been grabbed up in collections.

Maybe a limited edition scarcity is not held in as high a regard as a true rare item that occurs naturally, but it still seems that a LE can create a rare item, at least in the way most watch people use the word. It might be argued that there aren't many really rare watches when they were mass produced. But it doesn't seem like watch people use the term rarity to describe 1 or 5 remaining items. The way rarity was used to describe the racing speedmaster, it was more like scarcity or limited. Is it really rare if you could buy half dozen right away if you had the money? Scarcity does seem to be a better word than rare, especially for limited editions.

In either case, when there's only one clear marble out of a hundred marbles, everyone will want clear one.

I guess, it is semantics at this point. When is something scarce versus unattainable, versus limited, versus rare or even versus unique. There is a lot of gray area and joint similarities between those terms, but looking at Websters there is a strong distinction.

Clearly getting pedantic here, sorry about that; But I'd still argue that a limited edition piece may have some rarity when measured against non limited editions based on, well, the scarcity of production. Or perhaps it is "rare" to own a limited edition piece compared to how common it may be to own a non limited edition...but the piece itself is not rare, it is perfectly common but confined to the limits of its production and the qualities of it's design.

Can a limited edition piece be also rare based on the exceptional, unique qualities of it's production? yes. But is every limited edition rare? no.

(webster):

rare: (uncommon) seldom occurring or found/ marked by unusual quality merit or appeal/ superlative or extreme of its kind
Limited: confined within limits

Now if we look at other definitions we also can cross utilize but they all have some specific nuance. In that a rare object does not have to be unique as a single item necessarily, nor is even unique item rare as there is no other bar to consider how it would be "not rare"

Unique: used to say something or someone is unlike anything or anyone else/ very special or unusual

And lastly Scarce which also shoes some meaning with rare....and limited, not so much with unique. But, again, it is not rare because it is scarce it is just scarce....although a rare object is often scarce.

Scarce: Very Small in quantity or number compared with demand, not plentiful or abundant

janice&fred · Jan 19, 2022

arturo7
Many things are rare because nobody wanted them in the first place.

I couldn't agree more. I will also add that with the internet, things have gotten very unimaginative and shallow-trendy watch collecting-wise.
Monkey see monkey do. Take for instance the Rolex 1655 and wind-up daytonas. Both were dogs with fleas back in the day and hardly rare as plenty were manufactured. Some screwball named the 1655 the "Steve McQueen" and now it's desirable. We have two of 'em only because we bought them for peanuts in the Philippines where there's still a shit ton of them since Rolex used those pacific islands as a dumping ground for slow selling models. Wind-up daytonas? "Paul Newmans"? Same story. Italian collectors scoured those islands and scoffed up all they could find. At least the daytona does have a legit link to Newman and car racing.

Watch collecting in general has degenerated to the point where "avid" collectors' collections all look the same. Daytonas, subs, speedys, explorers, yawn. Some claim they are "thematic" rather than trendy. However if some gee manages to make the gold plated square case quartz Omega Geneve appear to be the next hot ticket one can bet they will be scarfed up and proudly displayed in watchuseek and other sites member collections despite being butt ugly.

ArmbandUhr69 · Jan 19, 2022

This watch went to the moon, so the descendants of this watch are famous despite being genetically modified or third, fourth, fifth generation.

This person went to the moon, rightly he is famous and deserves serious recognition on the world stage. His descendants, who has heard of them?

I treasure my Speedmaster but I have owned it all it's life. Otherwise I tend to think that this is bit of a marketing triumph over reality. I certainly wouldn't reject some of the later speed masters but in my reality, they are now the limited edition VW of the Porsche family. Certainly almost all are produced in numbers adequate to find in most duty free shops world wide. It is truely fantastic to see them being collected but are they really the icons they are held to be? This of course equally applies to many many other brands so not an exercise in Omaga bashing but a recognition of the place occupied by marketers and influencers in our society today.

M'Bob · Jan 19, 2022

A ArmbandUhr69
It is truely fantastic to see them being collected but are they really the icons they are held to be? This of course equally applies to many many other brands so not an exercise in Omaga bashing but a recognition of the place occupied by marketers and influencers in our society today

No, they are not icons, but that may not be the point.

Omega is a business, and their job at the end of the day is to make a profit. So they take their standard model, tweak it every way til Sunday, and hope there’s a buyer out there for that particular iteration. Sometimes we all feel like they’re stretching a bit, but if they hit on a model that catches your fancy, you’re happy they made it.

ArmbandUhr69 · Jan 19, 2022

Agreed, all very true. Whether it is Omega or any other quality brand. I'm just not that receptive to marketing, I'm very much guided by what something does for me and even better for me if it isn't on the list of highly desireable objects wanted by many others.

pdxleaf · Jan 19, 2022

Reminds me this scene.

The Devil Wears Prada Monologue Transcript
Miranda Priestly: Something funny?

Andy Sachs: No, no, nothing. Y’know, it’s just that both those belts look exactly the same to me. Y’know, I’m still learning about all this stuff.

Miranda Priestly: This “stuff”? Oh, okay. I see. You think this has nothing to do with you.

You go to your closet and you select out, oh I don’t know, that lumpy blue sweater, for instance, because you’re trying to tell the world that you take yourself too seriously to care about what you put on your back. But what you don’t know is that that sweater is not just blue, it’s not turquoise, it’s not lapis, it’s actually cerulean.

You’re also blithely unaware of the fact that in 2002, Oscar de la Renta did a collection of cerulean gowns. And then I think it was Yves St Laurent, wasn’t it, who showed cerulean military jackets? And then cerulean quickly showed up in the collections of eight different designers. Then it filtered down through the department stores and then trickled on down into some tragic “casual corner” where you, no doubt, fished it out of some clearance bin. However, that blue represents millions of dollars and countless jobs and so it’s sort of comical how you think that you’ve made a choice that exempts you from the fashion industry when, in fact, you’re wearing the sweater that was selected for you by the people in this room. From a pile of “stuff.”

Risto · Jan 20, 2022

Interestingly I remember the time when I got into the watches and lusted for Speedmaster.
I did not like racing dials (and didn't know these were rare and more expensive). Only "classic" did it for me.
Btw, my first Speedy was "reduced".

Of course, over last 5-6 years my taste has evolved a lot.
And it's not really the cost that affects my feelings, but perhaps rarity does.
For example, I now want to find a Seamaster chronograph with "Exotic" dial. Picture by fellow member kov.
If this wasn't a rare watch, perhaps I'd not care... Idk

Does rarity change our aesthetic sensibility?

M'Bob

Sherbie

lightweight

lightweight

Archer

M'Bob

gyromiterob

M'Bob

stonestone

Screwbacks

Nobel Prize

pdxleaf

Nobel Prize

janice&fred

ArmbandUhr69

M'Bob

ArmbandUhr69

pdxleaf

Risto

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