You've made it abundantly clear that you are not a vintage guy. Vintage Speedmaster collectors would not value a pre-moon Speedmaster with modern replacement parts anywhere near an all-correct version. Your opinion is of a very small minority among the watch collecting / "unreasoning obsession" community.

 

Yes, I understand that, and collectos are a small minority of watch-wearing people. Some collectors seem to think that all the world is like them... trust me, it's not.

I admire the technology. I have a few vacuum tube radios, too bad commercial radio stations suck. Some vintage radio collectors actually make the underneath side of the chassis looking as original as possible. What's the point, I ask, no one is ever going to see it. But they keep on with their "museum quality" restorations.

You know what, I think I am less a collector than a historian and enthusiast of learning old tech. By the way, don't forget that bottle of whale oil to lubricate the escapement with. ;-)

Tom

 

But if all of a sudden that Burlington Santa Fe Locomotive became very very valuable and there was a buyer that wants to get an original one then at the very least it would be disclosed that it was serviced by Electro-Motive Diesel and it has non original headlights. and that would have an effect on it's value against others like it.

And if then Electro-Motive Diesel started building Burlington Northern Santa Fe locomotives with spare parts, some new, some old...that too would have to be noted and have an effect on its value

and if THEN Electro Diesel said this is a 100% original Burlington Locomotive, made with 100% Burlington parts and an engine from an old Burlington locomotive that had different specs...Well then that DEFINITELY would have some say "wait a minute, it's pretty, it's good, it's ingenious and well executed...it actually runs faster and longer...but that is because it is not an original Burlington Northern Santa Fe Locomotive...it's Electro-Motives version of the original made with parts that are original. It is a respectful and wonderful replica, a custom made one of a kind piece, a modified Locomotive"

it may be better, or worse...but it is definitely not the same.

 

And that's fair...but don't impose your own perspective either then...because trust me...it is not shared by everyone either...specially on a watch forum. You can very well disagree with a collector or hobbyist perspective but that doesn't mean you have to dismiss it or reproach it. to each his or her own. There is a way you can state your point of view without negatively branding others.

 

Oh, trust me, I am holding back a lot in an attempt to be polite. I find some of the advice to new people to be extraordinary. It's like they're being steered towards behavior that will benefit the collector community instead of helping someone enjoy her granfather's 1950s Seamaster.

It's not just with watches, either. I've seen it with guns as well. Nothing like telling a 1911 pistol collector that you're going to shoot your 1918-vintage Model of 1911. I specifically didn't tell them I threw out the pins and springs because these were always intended to be replaced... not revered 100 years later.

Tom

 

Once again you make a valid point, but you have to understand you go to a Doctor for Medical advice, to a lawyer for Legal advice and to watch collector for watch collecting advice.

People can't help but being what they are and bringing it forward. I am not a hard core collector and, like you, sometimes feel there is a narrowing perspective on any specialized community,...but I understand that that is precisely part of the "specialized" part of it.

Seek advice from a collector and you will get advice from a collector...then measure that advice against your own view. There is no Universal Dogma.

 

A pinned posting or a FAQ that states this and I think that would be quite helpful. How a person can wear their "collectable" watch to respect their grandfather or uncle or whatever.

You know what makes me really sad? Inscribed watches on eBay or whatever. None of you relatives wanted the watch at all? Hrmph.

Tom

 

I think it will be a long time before I buy another vintage but I will. To buy with a good chance of having an all original non Frankenstein or over polishe watch takes a lot of work.This thread has made me realise even though I have a brand new speedy how much I like the vintage ones.

 

You CAN buy an Archer and in my opinion it's a fantastic watch. Though it's not a cobbled together watch, but a well built and well designed piece.

Just adding my 2 cents. This thread has been an interesting debate.

 

Hopefully Archer might answer this. Just what are the chances of coming across a working, completely original vintage watch of say 50 years age.

I ask this because my understanding is that "original" means as it left the factory - no replacement parts. Not even a gasket or seal.

 

Probably no chance, or it will be a watch in need of servicing .

 

Gasket seals, genuine specific parts for movement should be ok. Obviously redials and Frankenstein hands etc are not.

 

I agree with this... it will be running, perhaps. Keeping time? No.

Tom

 

And if we buy into your argument, if it get's a service and has new parts fitted, it becomes a franken.

 

Ok. I have seen on U Tube a guy who has a seamasrer 300 vintage. He said the case is original with original serial number, original movement. But everything else has new looking parts maybe from watch co? You can tell by looking at the watch the dial, it looks brand new for Christ sakes.

What are the experts opinions to this?

It looks a bit out of sink to me. I would rather have the brand new tribute from omega co axial or the proper vintage one.

 

Right, time to stick my head right above the parapet on this. I think most of the confusion stems from differing interpretations of common words/phrases used by this community (and others) to describe watches. I've given this some thought and offer my musings as follows.

ORIGINAL - as the watch left the factory. Nothing changed, replaced or altered.

MANUFACTURER'S ORIGINAL SPECIFICATION - a watch that has had some parts replaced. The replacement parts are OEM and to exactly the same specification as the original parts.

MANUFACTURER'S SPECIFICATION - a watch that has had some parts replaced. The replacement parts are OEM, however, they may not be exactly the same specification as the original parts due to changes in manufacturers specifications over time etc.

Whether it's popular or not, in my opinion the first time anything is replaced on a watch, be it during a service or due to wear and tear, it ceases to be original. Also, it's quite possible to have a completely original watch that does not conform to manufacturer's original specification. Think of crumbling lume, tropical dials and other indications of age (often called patina).

Then we come to the contentious areas. These are my opinions.

PASTICHE/REPLICA - a watch that contains all OEM parts, of the correct manufacturer's specification for the model, but was not assembled by the OEM and is sold as such.

HYBRID/MOD - a watch that contains all OEM parts, mostly of the correct manufacturer's specification for the model, but may have some non-manufacturer's specification parts which are clearly identified and is sold as such.

FRANKEN - a watch that contains OEM parts, however, it cannot conform to manufacturer's specification for the model,as the combination of movement, case, dial, hands etc. was never part of the OEMs production, and is not disclosed or sold as such.

FAKE - Non OEM parts designed to deceive.

 

Not quite my argument, not quite. that was someone else. My argument is that if you build a watch from parts old and new, it becomes a Franken. Someone else said that for some a watch with new parts or non original parts is a Franken, and I agree that for some that is the case. and in my posts I say as much.

Within my posts (and I do realize this is a long thread) I also differentiate between the need to add new parts, replacement parts etc for repair or service versus doing so for aesthetic value (which I am not saying it's not ok but it is a different case) versus adding new parts or replacement parts in order to sell a watch as something that it is not). Even then my point is disclosure is needed.

That is the frustrating part of forums, that things are read only partially, or understood wrongly...or perhaps written wrongly.

 

In my view, the more knowledge someone has the better. If you want people to withhold information about what impact on value having the case refinished, the dial and hands swapped etc. will have, I don't think anyone is going to back away and let that happen, nor should they.

No one here is forcing anything on anyone, so if after being given the relevant information about how making the watch look new could impact it's value negatively they still choose to do it, at least they went into it with their eyes open. Feel free to jump in give advice counter to what has been given if you like, but it would be nice if you did it without judging the people who have come forward to try to help someone already.

For the most part members here are simply trying to help new people so that they don't make a mistake they will regret later.

 

Just my 2 cents.

I've dealt with all of the people at Watchco on many occasions and never felt the need to doubt them.

I bought a Seamaster 300 from Watchco Australia knowing full well what it was.
The descriptions of all of their watches I've seen state what they are: watches constructed from legally sourced original parts using reclaimed or NOS service movements.

I can't think of a better way to use reclaimed movements from old/unfashionable/worn/valueless watches.

My SM300 came with a NOS movement, my Baby Ploprof came with a reclaimed movement.
In both cases the item description was quite clear.
I like both of them just as much as I do my original vintage watches.

I'm not even going to bother with discussing terms like franken etc. there wouldn't be enough space left on the internet if this continued.

And this thread is useless without pics.

Here endeth my input.

 

Hey! you are not alone!

My Mark II, built from a collection of used and new parts. Yeah, yeah...is not "original" but does the job of keeping timing very well!!

Amen!