Coffee lovers

BAJJ · Feb 23, 2022

Two great machines there @Faz . Both will deliver a really good espresso and Latte. The appartemento is a really great looking machine, excellent quality, almost a piece of art in your kitchen. It has a heat exchanger boiler and although not as good as a dual boiler, it will steam the same time as pulling shots, no problem with your wife’s latte’s there. With the E61 group head its warm up time will be a lot longer than the Silvia Pro and without the PID you will need to temperature surf (i.e. pull a blank shot through the group head to stabilise the temperature). The Silvia Pro is a great machine and packs a lot of features for the price, these are extremely popular and for a good reason, they do an excellent job. So in a lot of respects it comes down to aesthetics, the appartemento will do everything you need and look amazing at the same time. The Silvia Pro trumps it in features and ease of operation but maybe not as easy on the eye. Good luck with your decision😀

Kwijibo · Feb 23, 2022

Rocket make lovely coffee machine but I find it a bit sad not to pay a little more to have a PID, a double manometer, a rotary pump.
IMO single boilers like the Silvia is better for only espresso fans. Time surfing is a pain unless you make a capuccino once a week.
for those who don't know about temp surfing, it's about dropping the boiler temperature after frothing milk to make coffe again. On these machine, you'll have to make your espresso forst then your milk. The problem being that bringing the boiler to 130 degrees after a shot can take some time and there's a risk of letting your coffee get colder and losing some crema.

If I had to buy a new machine, and that will happen within a year, I would take :

a large HX of dual boiler
a PID
a double mamoneter
a pre infusion
a 58mm group (for accessories)
E61 group or a heated off group
a rotary pump

I must admit that the Lelit Bianca have it all + a paddle for geeks. the only possible flaw is a rather small water boiler.

😉

Faz · Feb 23, 2022

BAJJ
With the E61 group head its warm up time will be a lot longer than the Silvia Pro and without the PID you will need to temperature surf (i.e. pull a blank shot through the group head to stabilise the temperature).

Kwijibo
Time surfing is a pain unless you make a capuccino once a week.

This is one of the cons of the Rocket for us, but we haven't discounted it yet.

ken_hodson · Feb 23, 2022

I'd go for dual boiler and PID (Silvia). I'm not sure about heat exchange machines as I don't see how they regulate temperature. People say things like 'you need to purge the group head before you make coffee to cool it down'. How is this accurate temp control? Whereas dual boiler with PID on the brewing boiler will give you the all important consistent temp at the group head.

Mind you, a basic Gaggia classic without PID works fine for me! So maybe temperature regulation, to the degree that coffee afficionados seek, is overrated.

The Silvia looks pretty utilitarian. The Rocket does look amazing by comparison.

...sorry not sure these thoughts help much! It's either function over form, or form over function.

Kwijibo · Feb 23, 2022

well actually it's pretty simple and used one high end machines. The reasons why one has to purge the group is only to evacuate the water that is in the portion of the tube that sits into the boiler and reaches about 120 degrees. Once done, the water that comes from the tank is heated immediatly through the boiler. If you make ten coffees one after the other, it's needless to do a flush again. It's calculated by the manufacturer (length of the pipe into the boiler, average temperature of cold water that has to be heated)
single boiler with the group underneath make perfect coffee. The only points are the volume of water is relativly small. Bigger in rossi group type. so the temperature is less stable. Of course brass boilers a better than steel ones.
it's rater logical that bigger a boiler is, more stable the temperature is just because. IE, if you take 30 ml of a liters boiler, the boiler willre main almost at the same temperature even if you add some extra 30ml of cold water. If you have a 300ml single boiler, you ad 10% of cold water instead of 0,15% in a 3 liters boiler. That's just pure physics. So now imagine if you heat up a single boiler to 130 degrees to have some steam what it takes to take it down again to about 95 degrees.

Sorry to be such a geek but I'm a great fan of espresso machines. So yes, even if basic machines can make good coffee, high end coffes make excellent coffee. I don't have a $2000 dollars machine now. I use a old HC Nuova simonelli that I pimped up with a pressure regulator and a mamometer. it'as an excellent machine that i bought second end for 150 euros + 150 euros of pimping.

Pvt-Public · Feb 24, 2022

Wow all these fancy machines, my machine is at the local convenience store 😲🤪 ::facepalm1::

Faz · Feb 26, 2022

It was time to move towards something new. After quite of bit of research and the invaluable help from @Kwijibo , we’ve opted for the Lelit Elizabeth v3 and a Eureka Mignon Silenzio grinder. Right off the bat, with the factory settings and some experimenting with the grinder, we had amazing results with the coffee supplied by the machine retailer (Café Liégeois here in Montreal). Tomorrow we’ll do a more in depth exploration of this amazing little machine. It certainly shows great potential. It must be said, that my sister is thrilled that we are gifting her our Breville Barista!

BAJJ · Feb 26, 2022

That's a great set up @Faz , I have the silenzio as well, it's a great grinder, and quiet, you'll be bouncing off the walls over the next few days with the caffeine 😁 Enjoy

ken_hodson · Feb 26, 2022

Excellent choices. Eureka grinders are fantastic, I have the Chrono (nothing to do with my watch habit!) version and I love it. I've seriously been considering the Lelit Elizabeth too, so will be interested to know how you find it 😀

TheGreekPhysique · Mar 7, 2022

I have read a lot of praise for these stand alone grinders like the silenzio. Curious to everyone's opinions on the differences/advantages between something like the silenzio and the integrated grinders included in something like the breville I own.

ken_hodson · Mar 7, 2022

If you're making espresso then it's important to have a grinder that grinds fine enough. Many cheaper ones simply don't. The idea is that you progressively grind finer and finer until you hit a sweet spot (an extraction time of around 25-30s for a shot of coffee that isn't too bitter or too weak). This is the 'dialing in' that people talk about. I guess the advantage of a separate grinder is that it is easier to grind, adjust, grind again etc. Like with a lot of things, when you amalgamate functions (like grinding and brewing) the quality of the individual elements isn't often as good as if you bought them separately. Also, it isn't as easy to adjust the different components and coffee boffins LOVE being able to adjust this and that (brew temp, bar pressure, coffee grind, etc). As a rule of thumb they say you should spend about as much on the grinder as the espresso machine... However, the Eureka grinders are all very good and cost around £300-£500 depending on model. I'm not sure spending more than this gets you noticeably better coffee.

That being said, bean to cup machines can make a good coffee with a lot less fuss! Provided the grinder bit grinds fine enough, it's probably fine.

BAJJ · Mar 7, 2022

@TheGreekPhysique I have the silenzio and it's a really good grinder, the consistency of the grind is the main advantage you get from a standalone grinder over a built in, and better consistency will give you better extraction and a better shot.
There are other advantages too, less retention of ground coffee in the burrs which goes stale and affects your next grind, easier to single dose, i.e. only grinding the beans you need each time rather than leaving a full hopper of beans which go stale, this also helps with measuring your dose accurately by weight rather than time. It's easier to adjust the grind setting and that is stepless in the silenzio and maybe stepped, not as fine tune, as the Breville. The silenzio is also just that, the quietest grinder I have owned, important if your other half is intolerant to that kind of thing. Machines like the Breville do the job very well, no doubt about that and are probably more convenient than two stand alone machines, but I think you get a better and more consistent extraction / shot from stand alone. I would say though that I have never owned a Breville so the last comment is an assumption on my part.

TheGreekPhysique · Mar 7, 2022

ken_hodson
If you're making espresso then it's important to have a grinder that grinds fine enough. Many cheaper ones simply don't. The idea is that you progressively grind finer and finer until you hit a sweet spot (an extraction time of around 25-30s for a shot of coffee that isn't too bitter or too weak). This is the 'dialing in' that people talk about. I guess the advantage of a separate grinder is that it is easier to grind, adjust, grind again etc. Like with a lot of things, when you amalgamate functions (like grinding and brewing) the quality of the individual elements isn't often as good as if you bought them separately. Also, it isn't as easy to adjust the different components and coffee boffins LOVE being able to adjust this and that (brew temp, bar pressure, coffee grind, etc). As a rule of thumb they say you should spend about as much on the grinder as the espresso machine... However, the Eureka grinders are all very good and cost around £300-£500 depending on model. I'm not sure spending more than this gets you noticeably better coffee.

That being said, bean to cup machines can make a good coffee with a lot less fuss! Provided the grinder bit grinds fine enough, it's probably fine.

The breville I have does have different settings allowing me to grind the coffee more fine or more course allowing me to achieve an extraction time of 25-30s. Are there any other features or advantages that a standalone grinder has?

Speaking of the extraction time, when should you actually start your timer? When you first hit the button that starts the extraction process or when you first actually start to see the espresso coming out?

ken_hodson · Mar 7, 2022

@BAJJ makes good points. Generally, better grind consistency, less grind retention, ability to accurately weigh your grounds and (with Eureka grinders at least) 'non-stepped' dialing, meaning you can make very fine adjustments to the grind size.

With regards to when to start the timer for extraction, this is hotly disputed (take a look on Google)! I have a very basic machine, it takes 2-3 seconds before coffee starts coming out, so I start timing once I hit the pump button. If you're machine is more complex for example, it pre-infuses, then I'd probably time from when coffee comes out the spout. Extraction time gives you a rough idea that you're doing it right. If the coffee comes out in 10s it's unlikely to be very nice. Likewise if it takes 60s it'll be overextracted and bitter. The 'skill' is in fine tuning the grind so that you get coffee that is, fairly consistently, to your taste. Aiming for an extraction time of around 25-30s (however you measure) should help with the initial dialing in, thereafter it's trial and error (in terms of small adjustments to grinding and dosage) to get the best flavor. The exact extraction time becomes less of an issue.
I hope my ramblings makes sense 😉

The Father · Mar 7, 2022

Back from service at NESBITS
Look great
Runs great
Sets at dead high noon
God Bless America

ken_hodson · Mar 7, 2022

The Father
Back from service at NESBITS
Look great
Runs great
Sets at dead high noon
God Bless America

However you measure extraction time, it's important to do so using a fine piece of horological, timekeeping equipment 😉👍

BAJJ · Mar 7, 2022

I start the clock as soon as I start to pull the shot, I used to use the 25 to 30 seconds time frame bit lately I have been allowing it out to 30 to 35secs, I like a medium to dark roast and I dose 18gms and I find these settings suit my taste buds best. Use the benchmarks initially and then start to experiment, at the end of the day it's all about the taste and what you like may not be what the purists say you should like. That's the thing about coffee, lots of tasting and experimenting. And then there's the different types of roasts, a lot of the 3rd wave stuff is lightly roasted which means heavier doses and longer extraction times.
Above all else though the quality of the bean is the most important thing, even if you have the best of equipment if you put crap in you'll get crap out, like most things really. Ideally your beans should have a roast date on them and have been roasted in the last 1 to 2 weeks. Buy in small batches or freeze the beans until you need them.

Jayrock26v2 · Mar 7, 2022

reading this thread sipping on a nice hot black coffee just hits different 🙄

TheGreekPhysique · Mar 7, 2022

ken_hodson
@BAJJ makes good points. Generally, better grind consistency, less grind retention, ability to accurately weigh your grounds and (with Eureka grinders at least) 'non-stepped' dialing, meaning you can make very fine adjustments to the grind size.

With regards to when to start the timer for extraction, this is hotly disputed (take a look on Google)! I have a very basic machine, it takes 2-3 seconds before coffee starts coming out, so I start timing once I hit the pump button. If you're machine is more complex for example, it pre-infuses, then I'd probably time from when coffee comes out the spout. Extraction time gives you a rough idea that you're doing it right. If the coffee comes out in 10s it's unlikely to be very nice. Likewise if it takes 60s it'll be overextracted and bitter. The 'skill' is in fine tuning the grind so that you get coffee that is, fairly consistently, to your taste. Aiming for an extraction time of around 25-30s (however you measure) should help with the initial dialing in, thereafter it's trial and error (in terms of small adjustments to grinding and dosage) to get the best flavor. The exact extraction time becomes less of an issue.
I hope my ramblings makes sense 😉

Makes sense. I am pretty sure mine has that pre-infusion feature because it takes more like 8-10 seconds before coffee starts coming out. The issue I am having is if I try to increase the extraction time to hit the 25-30s mark (without the 8-10 preinfusion time) by making the coffee more fine the pressure builds up in the machine so high that the coffee barely drips out. Another variable I have found that changes things considerably is the intensity of which I push with the tamper. That variable seems like its one that is almost impossible to get consistent.

Faz · Mar 7, 2022

ken_hodson
Excellent choices. Eureka grinders are fantastic, I have the Chrono (nothing to do with my watch habit!) version and I love it. I've seriously been considering the Lelit Elizabeth too, so will be interested to know how you find it 😀

Hey,
2 weeks in with the Elizabeth. With some great tips from members here and a lot of research (great videos on YouTube), I can say, with confidence, that we’ve elevated our coffee to new levels. We are now able to make espresso bar quality coffee at home. With the right coffee, tools and better skills, we are beyond thrilled. To make sure, we’ve tested the same coffee in our Breville. We found that although very good, the results we get with the Elizabeth are a step above. The temperature control and pre infusion settings make for a superior drink.

Coffee lovers

BAJJ

Kwijibo

Faz

ken_hodson

Kwijibo

Pvt-Public

Faz

BAJJ

ken_hodson

TheGreekPhysique

ken_hodson

BAJJ

TheGreekPhysique

ken_hodson

The Father

ken_hodson

BAJJ

Jayrock26v2

TheGreekPhysique

Faz

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