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Chronographs - Vertical And Horizontal Coupling

  1. BlackTalon This Space for Rent Jul 25, 2020

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    For someone who does not have time to post meaningful content, you sure have a lot of time to post unmeaningful content. And I somehow doubt you are such an expert on criticism that you know it 10xs better then what you write about it.
     
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  2. Zalmodegikos Jul 25, 2020

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    The last part, starting from "General advice..." and going all the way down, was a general statement, and it was not pointed at any person in particular. My wording may indicate otherwise, but it was the general "you" and was definitely not aimed at the person I was replying to.
    Just to clarify it, no desire to escalate any "conflict" further -- even though these are just storms in a glass of water, first world problems at best while people are dying on the streets of Syria...
    And I am still waiting for any God of Horology to post something of substance about a vertical clutch.
    Crisp drawings would be nice, sectional views a dream...
     
  3. Zalmodegikos Jul 25, 2020

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    Did you report me for being called a "dick" without using any profanity on my side? Did you also report me for not being an brown noser? Who did you work for in another life, the Gestapo? You sure have the knack for it and truth really seems to bother you something fierce...
     
  4. ConElPueblo Jul 25, 2020

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    I reported you for being a troll and being rude.

    You are definitely the least likable member I have come across here in a long while.
     
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  5. Zalmodegikos Jul 25, 2020

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    Can you point out the exact paragraph, phrase or word, deemed "rude" in your appraisal of the situation?
    You are the one spewing out contempt, calling me names like "troll" and "rude" with no basis whatsoever for that?
    And you have the nerve to call me "least likable member"?
    I DID NOT TALK TO YOU EVER -- what is your problem?
    And since we are on the subject, what did you mummy reply when you went to her in tears that you got offended by something you read on the Internet?
     
  6. Modest_Proposal Trying too hard to be one of the cool kids Jul 25, 2020

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    I would recommend you guys stop engaging with Zalm. He's clearly feeding off the persecution.
     
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  7. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Jul 25, 2020

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    Children, please stop fighting over nothing.

    Listen to Sgt. Hulka:


    gatorcpa
     
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  8. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jul 25, 2020

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    You can call me names if you like, question my age, engineering abilities - all these things reflect more on you than they do me. I really don't care to be honest.

    But just to back up a bit, the error you have made here is a common one with some engineers. You are looking for complexity where none exists. I've explained pretty much the entirety of this mechanism here, in my very first reply to you:

    "In a vertical clutch chronograph, there is a strong compression spring that presses the disc to the wheel"

    The fact that you refuse to believe it's this simple, doesn't change the fact that it is. There is literally one detail I haven't stated, and that is the type of spring used. It's a type of thrust washer (Belleville spring style, but cut to a specific shape) that is used to press the disk against the wheel. That's it.
     
  9. Zalmodegikos Jul 25, 2020

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    Thank you for this reply, I really mean it.
    Would you believe me if I told you that I have no idea what a "Belleville spring style, but cut to a specific shape" is, or means in this context?
    Maybe I have not pleaded my ignorance enough, but when I said sixth grader that is exactly what I meant -- at least in relation to watches...
    And if you think I am a troll, then you are wrong -- the real problem is, and this has nothing to do with you and it is my shortcoming entirely, that I have been scouring the Internet, the YouTube, the forums for a real explanation about the vertical clutch (the horizontal one is straightforward). Nothing, everybody is spewing the same banalities, the same minimalist explanations if any, the same nothing really -- and I fail to see why people consider this thing unimportant. Maybe I got a little frustrated about that, and maybe something in my language ruffled you feathers -- no intention of causing any harm though... Also, English is my second language, and I have started using it after the age of 30 -- some of the hardness of my mother tongue may still be in there, and while I cannot help it, it is not an excuse, nor do I intend to hide behind it...
    To me, it seems that the entire chronograph runs on that thing -- without a perfect operating clutch, how is your chronometer going to pass the stringent tests for precision? Any slippage in there will lead to errors, any fault in engaging will give bogus readings, and the wear on things that run on pure friction never stops and starts right away, with first use, and so forth...
    How are all these things addressed, how are all the shortcomings of the design mitigated?
    I am not disputing the mechanism may be simple (?), I am saying that IMHO it is important enough to merit attention and respect, and maybe a detailed explanation. To be honest, I was taken aback and shocked to see that the whole chronograph runs on pure friction and nothing else, but I do understand the problems with both designs, and then Mr. Jean-Marc Wiederrecht comes with a horizontal clutch based on friction but with teeth also underneath, and I do not see how that design can avoid knocking of the teeth, if those wheels are supposed to cog together!
    "Thrust washer"? First time I hear about this... I am not a mechanical engineer, by the way, and I have just started with watches...
    But I am going to look it up now, even though I anticipate more frustration coming down the pipe... Google is not necessarily everybody's friend.
    Again, thank you for your reply, and if in the near future my understanding is going to allow me to draw the mechanism of a vertical clutch, you are most welcome to criticize it and have a picnic day with it!
    If truth is on your side, there is nothing anybody can do to you.
    And no man should be punished for speaking the truth or for speaking his mind, but he should be faulted if his language is objectionable, in any way. Please set me straight whenever you feel that needs to be done, and if you are right, you will get no crap from me.
    I am not trying to troll anybody!!!!
     
  10. gatorcpa ΩF InvestiGator Staff Member Jul 25, 2020

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    Could have fooled me!

    Please stop. Both of you.

    2nd warning.

    You know what happens when you get 3 strikes.
    gatorcpa
     
  11. studeb Jul 25, 2020

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    i dont get the issue. im a biologist and i understand the description.
    very nice, thanks Archer!
     
  12. rob#1 Jul 25, 2020

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    I agree with @ChiefMark, it was good to read the original post and learn again the intricacies of mechanical watches.

    I didn’t have the time or inclination to read the diatribe that followed ;)
     
  13. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jul 26, 2020

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    Last reply to you...

    I assume you mean chronograph when you wrote chronometer. There are no specific accuracy tests generally for the integrated chronograph function, at least not any that I have seen from any watch brand or movement maker. There are functional checks done with regards to physical distances between specific parts, when the minute counter flips, and those kinds of checks, but the only real performance check done is to compare the balance amplitude drop with the chronograph engaged compared to with it stopped.

    The chronograph is generally as accurate as the base movement. Both horizontal and vertically coupled chronographs have a slight lag in the start - I would argue vertical is quicker due to the shorter travel of engagement.

    The problems you are imagining are not really present in real life, in a properly maintained watch.
     
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  14. pdxleaf Capricious-Watch-Slave Jul 26, 2020

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    To the mod's, could Al's threads be made into stickies? Or maybe one sticky with links to the threads, assuming he will want to continue sharing in the future? I ask this because this older thread would have been lost to me if it hadn't been brought forward. I also tripped over his thread on digital watches, which was helpful.

    Speaking for myself, I believe that everyone here shares an interest in watches and a desire to learn more. Otherwise we wouldn't be reading this.

    I also recognize that the watch maker's craft is quite complex and requires lengthy and diligent study. I do not expect to be able to fully understand such a complex machine in a brief sitting, regardless of the amount of detail or effort. This is even more so in a restricted format such as a public forum.

    I also recognize that members share information voluntarily and out of goodwill. Any time spent here is time not spent with family, friends and career. Therefore I am grateful for their contribution. So thank you one and all.

    Lastly, I also have additional questions when reading something like this thread. I don't have an engineer's background so it is even more difficult for me. At times i will need to reread a section a few times just to follow. Others may not need to do this. I view these informational threads as catalysts for getting more information. For example, after reading the digital watch thread i watched Youtube videos to learn more and try to understand it better (i am not an engineer recall.) The forum opens the world of watches to me.

    It appears our new member is no longer with us. As a recent member myself (as of March 2020), I would encourage any new member to use the private message system if there is a misunderstanding, as well as to assume the best of intentions when reading. I must say that as an US American who is embarrassed to only speak one language, i am quite impressed by the English of our worldwide membership (although our British island members may not be as impressed with my language.)

    Thanks again, friends, and enjoy the rest of the weekend.

    Cheers
     
  15. cicindela Steve @ ΩF Staff Member Jul 26, 2020

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    Everyone can chill down and relax: He’s gone.
     
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  16. killer67 Jul 26, 2020

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    good riddance ::psy::
     
  17. RCpeedy Jun 22, 2021

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    Edited Jun 22, 2021
  18. DoctorEvil Jun 23, 2021

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    @Archer Thanks for your original post at the start of the thread. Came across it by accident but so glad I did. I've always wondered what the difference was between horizontal and vertical clutch chronographs and now thanks to you I do. Please keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your more technical posts.
     
  19. dtd Jun 26, 2021

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    Great info @Archer I have a question I hope that you can answer! Reading the part about horizontally coupled chronographs. My understanding is that there is a chance of the teeth not meshing correctly, and several side effects may encounter.

    My new omega speedmaster cal 3861 has stopped three times when I started the chronograph, can this be a side effect of an horizontally coupled chronograph? Or should I take it to the AD? The watch is about 3 weeks old and I have worn it daily, and used the chronograph function fairly often (at least once a day). The first time it happened was about 2 weeks ago, the second time was the day after, but then I did stop and start the chronograph very often to see if I managed to make it happen again. And it randomly happened today again.
     
  20. Archer Omega Qualified Watchmaker Jun 26, 2021

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    The teeth are made to be very sharp and pointed to avoid this as much as possible, but it can still happen. But I would say it's pretty rare, so for you to have it that many times is odd.