Chronographs - Vertical And Horizontal Coupling

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>> Sorry, but the inner workings of the vertical clutch are poorly explained (i.e. missing entirely)...
This is the most damning part of my initial comment, and the most "inflammatory" (??) of all -- where do you think I am a dick about it?
I even started by apologizing...
Point out the exact paragraph, phrase or words that you considered offensive, and then I can apologize again, if that is the case.
But first, show me exactly where did I rape your fragile and delicate mind, and I will take responsibility for it in front of everybody.
How old are you, by the way? A range would do... Are you at least over 20?
I am over 50, so I need to know if I am dealing with some sort of a delicate creature given the lack of experience with life...
You really seem to have either a real bad ego, or a disproportionate reaction to the mildest criticism...

>> I come here on my own time to help explain things
No, you are not. Excuses again... Found another thing to hide under, Al?
Maybe you do not have a clear understanding what it means to perform in public.
You may not realise it, but this is what anyone is doing when posting for the large public.
When you decide to go public with something, it would be a good idea to own the subject. Not know something about, not read 10 minutes on the Internet about it, but own it. THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE. And that always shows.
Rule of thumb is: you should know AT LEAST ten times more about the subject than you are supposed to write or talk about it.
Ten times -- that is 10, comes after nine...
Also, if you decided to be a beacon of knowledge, you have to be rigorous, you have to be well written, you have to be concise but not at the expense of clarity, and you have to proofread and proofread again, because the public, paying or not, deserves respect.
Otherwise, you come across as a lot of other undesirable things, and again, God complex, aggrandizing and tooting your own horn come to the forefront...
You wanna perform, you wanna razzle and dazzle the audience, you wanna be the Zeus of Horology!
Be my guest, power to the people, hurray and all that -- but do it properly... Or do not do it at all.
Or if you do it whichever way you can, and there is benefit even to a half baked article, be a gentleman about it and accept you did not put all your effort into it, accept the holes in your argument and be gracious to the ones that point that out.
They did their homework, they read your article once and twice and three times, they made the effort to understand, they followed you train of thought from the beginning to the end and they came up short -- how is this their fault, oh God of Horology?? Is it their fault that they put the effort and the time and did their homework, but you did not?

>> most are able to understand them
Yeah, but most is not good enough, is it Al? If you feed only most of your children, the rest will die -- and that is down right criminal. If you provide air for most of the space shuttle flight, even if you miss the last five minutes, guess what, the crew will die right at landing time. And that looks really bad on the resume, doesn't it brother?
MOST is not good enough for an engineer Al, it is actually an admission of guilt bordering the incompetent.
Stupid argument, I warned you about it last time, but you do not seem to get it.
Don't use this argument again, you are really putting yourself down -- engineers do not go by MOST (if that is what you really are, you seem to put a lot of effort in convincing me you are actually not an engineer).
Real engineers go by nailing it to the wall and literally destroying the subject -- at least the good ones do.

Now you know who the real prick is.
A real man would have said: "Good point! I have repaired hundreds of watches (or thousands, or millions), but I never bothered to really see how a vertical clutch works, I have never taken one to pieces and study it closely, I have never really took the time to own the subject to the last minute detail of it. I had a job to do, I was in a hurry, it was enough for me to understand the basic principle, whatever... And you know what, I do not have a vertical clutch at hand right now to take it apart and put up some good pictures, but I am really glad you brought it up -- next time I get my hands on one, I will do just that, and I will nail that subject to the wall, not as much for you, but entirely for my own benefit!
And if I can't take pictures for a better illustration, I can still draw, because that is what us engineers are so good at, technical drawing -- when words fail to make the point, a drawing will definitely kill it. And I will be so smart and so kind as to strip away any technological aspect of it, and I will not draw you a Rolex or an Omega or a Breitling clutch, I will draw you first the ideal clutch mechanism, and then we can take if from there and show everybody how each company applied its own philosophy to the matter.
Because this is how engineers think, this is how engineers explain, and this is how engineers behave!
Keep you posted, Al."

And that Al, is your introduction to the subject of INTELLECTUAL HONESTY.
Look it up, it will serve you well in life, but only if you understand the complexities of the subject.

All the best,
Z.
For someone who does not have time to post meaningful content, you sure have a lot of time to post unmeaningful content. And I somehow doubt you are such an expert on criticism that you know it 10xs better then what you write about it.
 
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>> you have contributed almost nothing to this site since joining

And how is my lack of posting justifying your sloppiness?
What is a newbie supposed to contribute (??), among so many living Gods of Horology walking naked around here like this is the garden of Mount Olympus?
What kind of an argument is this anyway?
Do you even think of what you write, man???
Do you ever proofread?

General advice for people that want to write anything for the public consumption (nobody cares what you write in your diary, except maybe the people that are in there)... This is not my personal advice, it comes from reputable [professional] writers.
1) Write.
2) Walk away.
3) Do not think of what you have written, go do something else to take your mind off of it.
4) Come back at least one hour later.
5) Read again, thoroughly and closely, pay attention to words, punctuation, train of thought, logic, fundamental principles.
6) If in doubt, don't post. Change it -- that is, go back to point 1).
7) Repeat steps 1 to 6 as much as it is needed, until you fell you can't give anymore and you are really happy with the result. REALLY HAPPY.
8) Post it.
9) Stand by it -- if you did your homework, there is nothing to be ashamed of.
10) Be gracious to those pointing out faults (real faults, not people being mean). Those people wish you well. The others don't really give a fυck about you.

And no, points 9) and 10) do not contradict each other, but they do require effort to reconcile one to the other.
But if you still think that they are contradictory, writing is the least of your problems -- seek professional psychiatric help.

The last part, starting from "General advice..." and going all the way down, was a general statement, and it was not pointed at any person in particular. My wording may indicate otherwise, but it was the general "you" and was definitely not aimed at the person I was replying to.
Just to clarify it, no desire to escalate any "conflict" further -- even though these are just storms in a glass of water, first world problems at best while people are dying on the streets of Syria...
And I am still waiting for any God of Horology to post something of substance about a vertical clutch.
Crisp drawings would be nice, sectional views a dream...
 
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Reported, hopefully we can clean the thread up and this nobody can have his IP banned.
Did you report me for being called a "dick" without using any profanity on my side? Did you also report me for not being an brown noser? Who did you work for in another life, the Gestapo? You sure have the knack for it and truth really seems to bother you something fierce...
 
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Did you report me for being called a "dick" without using any profanity on my side? Did you also report me for not being an brown noser? Who did you work for in another life, the Gestapo? You sure have the knack for it and truth really seems to bother you something fierce...

I reported you for being a troll and being rude.

You are definitely the least likable member I have come across here in a long while.
 
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I reported you for being a troll and being rude.

You are definitely the least likable member I have come across here in a long while.

Can you point out the exact paragraph, phrase or word, deemed "rude" in your appraisal of the situation?
You are the one spewing out contempt, calling me names like "troll" and "rude" with no basis whatsoever for that?
And you have the nerve to call me "least likable member"?
I DID NOT TALK TO YOU EVER -- what is your problem?
And since we are on the subject, what did you mummy reply when you went to her in tears that you got offended by something you read on the Internet?
 
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I would recommend you guys stop engaging with Zalm. He's clearly feeding off the persecution.
 
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Children, please stop fighting over nothing.

Listen to Sgt. Hulka:

gatorcpa
 
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Sorry, but the inner workings of the vertical clutch are poorly explained (i.e. missing entirely)...

You can call me names if you like, question my age, engineering abilities - all these things reflect more on you than they do me. I really don't care to be honest.

But just to back up a bit, the error you have made here is a common one with some engineers. You are looking for complexity where none exists. I've explained pretty much the entirety of this mechanism here, in my very first reply to you:

"In a vertical clutch chronograph, there is a strong compression spring that presses the disc to the wheel"

The fact that you refuse to believe it's this simple, doesn't change the fact that it is. There is literally one detail I haven't stated, and that is the type of spring used. It's a type of thrust washer (Belleville spring style, but cut to a specific shape) that is used to press the disk against the wheel. That's it.
 
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Thank you for this reply, I really mean it.
Would you believe me if I told you that I have no idea what a "Belleville spring style, but cut to a specific shape" is, or means in this context?
Maybe I have not pleaded my ignorance enough, but when I said sixth grader that is exactly what I meant -- at least in relation to watches...
And if you think I am a troll, then you are wrong -- the real problem is, and this has nothing to do with you and it is my shortcoming entirely, that I have been scouring the Internet, the YouTube, the forums for a real explanation about the vertical clutch (the horizontal one is straightforward). Nothing, everybody is spewing the same banalities, the same minimalist explanations if any, the same nothing really -- and I fail to see why people consider this thing unimportant. Maybe I got a little frustrated about that, and maybe something in my language ruffled you feathers -- no intention of causing any harm though... Also, English is my second language, and I have started using it after the age of 30 -- some of the hardness of my mother tongue may still be in there, and while I cannot help it, it is not an excuse, nor do I intend to hide behind it...
To me, it seems that the entire chronograph runs on that thing -- without a perfect operating clutch, how is your chronometer going to pass the stringent tests for precision? Any slippage in there will lead to errors, any fault in engaging will give bogus readings, and the wear on things that run on pure friction never stops and starts right away, with first use, and so forth...
How are all these things addressed, how are all the shortcomings of the design mitigated?
I am not disputing the mechanism may be simple (?), I am saying that IMHO it is important enough to merit attention and respect, and maybe a detailed explanation. To be honest, I was taken aback and shocked to see that the whole chronograph runs on pure friction and nothing else, but I do understand the problems with both designs, and then Mr. Jean-Marc Wiederrecht comes with a horizontal clutch based on friction but with teeth also underneath, and I do not see how that design can avoid knocking of the teeth, if those wheels are supposed to cog together!
"Thrust washer"? First time I hear about this... I am not a mechanical engineer, by the way, and I have just started with watches...
But I am going to look it up now, even though I anticipate more frustration coming down the pipe... Google is not necessarily everybody's friend.
Again, thank you for your reply, and if in the near future my understanding is going to allow me to draw the mechanism of a vertical clutch, you are most welcome to criticize it and have a picnic day with it!
If truth is on your side, there is nothing anybody can do to you.
And no man should be punished for speaking the truth or for speaking his mind, but he should be faulted if his language is objectionable, in any way. Please set me straight whenever you feel that needs to be done, and if you are right, you will get no crap from me.
I am not trying to troll anybody!!!!
 
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I am not trying to troll anybody!!!!
Could have fooled me!

Please stop. Both of you.

2nd warning.

You know what happens when you get 3 strikes.
gatorcpa
 
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i dont get the issue. im a biologist and i understand the description.
very nice, thanks Archer!
 
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I agree with @ChiefMark, it was good to read the original post and learn again the intricacies of mechanical watches.

I didn’t have the time or inclination to read the diatribe that followed 😉
 
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To me, it seems that the entire chronograph runs on that thing -- without a perfect operating clutch, how is your chronometer going to pass the stringent tests for precision? Any slippage in there will lead to errors, any fault in engaging will give bogus readings, and the wear on things that run on pure friction never stops and starts right away, with first use, and so forth...
How are all these things addressed, how are all the shortcomings of the design mitigated?

Last reply to you...

I assume you mean chronograph when you wrote chronometer. There are no specific accuracy tests generally for the integrated chronograph function, at least not any that I have seen from any watch brand or movement maker. There are functional checks done with regards to physical distances between specific parts, when the minute counter flips, and those kinds of checks, but the only real performance check done is to compare the balance amplitude drop with the chronograph engaged compared to with it stopped.

The chronograph is generally as accurate as the base movement. Both horizontal and vertically coupled chronographs have a slight lag in the start - I would argue vertical is quicker due to the shorter travel of engagement.

The problems you are imagining are not really present in real life, in a properly maintained watch.
 
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To the mod's, could Al's threads be made into stickies? Or maybe one sticky with links to the threads, assuming he will want to continue sharing in the future? I ask this because this older thread would have been lost to me if it hadn't been brought forward. I also tripped over his thread on digital watches, which was helpful.

Speaking for myself, I believe that everyone here shares an interest in watches and a desire to learn more. Otherwise we wouldn't be reading this.

I also recognize that the watch maker's craft is quite complex and requires lengthy and diligent study. I do not expect to be able to fully understand such a complex machine in a brief sitting, regardless of the amount of detail or effort. This is even more so in a restricted format such as a public forum.

I also recognize that members share information voluntarily and out of goodwill. Any time spent here is time not spent with family, friends and career. Therefore I am grateful for their contribution. So thank you one and all.

Lastly, I also have additional questions when reading something like this thread. I don't have an engineer's background so it is even more difficult for me. At times i will need to reread a section a few times just to follow. Others may not need to do this. I view these informational threads as catalysts for getting more information. For example, after reading the digital watch thread i watched Youtube videos to learn more and try to understand it better (i am not an engineer recall.) The forum opens the world of watches to me.

It appears our new member is no longer with us. As a recent member myself (as of March 2020), I would encourage any new member to use the private message system if there is a misunderstanding, as well as to assume the best of intentions when reading. I must say that as an US American who is embarrassed to only speak one language, i am quite impressed by the English of our worldwide membership (although our British island members may not be as impressed with my language.)

Thanks again, friends, and enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Cheers
 
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By request here is some information on vertical clutch chronograph watches."
You are doing God's work, please keep it up. It's not often discussed that there is more than one type of chronograph out there, mostly because 99% of people who are into watches don't care about the differences between a cam-actuated or column-wheel vertical clutch design. To be honest and why wouldn't I, is that how you say it? Column wheel vertical clutch, or just column wheel, with the vertical clutch being its own thing. See what I mean, more knowledge is always appreciated, well at least by me, that one guy went off the rails, or did I miss something? Anyways thanks.
Edited:
 
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@Archer Thanks for your original post at the start of the thread. Came across it by accident but so glad I did. I've always wondered what the difference was between horizontal and vertical clutch chronographs and now thanks to you I do. Please keep up the good work. I enjoy reading your more technical posts.
 
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Great info @Archer I have a question I hope that you can answer! Reading the part about horizontally coupled chronographs. My understanding is that there is a chance of the teeth not meshing correctly, and several side effects may encounter.

My new omega speedmaster cal 3861 has stopped three times when I started the chronograph, can this be a side effect of an horizontally coupled chronograph? Or should I take it to the AD? The watch is about 3 weeks old and I have worn it daily, and used the chronograph function fairly often (at least once a day). The first time it happened was about 2 weeks ago, the second time was the day after, but then I did stop and start the chronograph very often to see if I managed to make it happen again. And it randomly happened today again.
 
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D dtd
Great info @Archer I have a question I hope that you can answer! Reading the part about horizontally coupled chronographs. My understanding is that there is a chance of the teeth not meshing correctly, and several side effects may encounter.

My new omega speedmaster cal 3861 has stopped three times when I started the chronograph, can this be a side effect of an horizontally coupled chronograph? Or should I take it to the AD? The watch is about 3 weeks old and I have worn it daily, and used the chronograph function fairly often (at least once a day). The first time it happened was about 2 weeks ago, the second time was the day after, but then I did stop and start the chronograph very often to see if I managed to make it happen again. And it randomly happened today again.

The teeth are made to be very sharp and pointed to avoid this as much as possible, but it can still happen. But I would say it's pretty rare, so for you to have it that many times is odd.