A movement marked unadjusted and if HPC means High precision.... might show a disconnect somewhere. Its only a 18,000 movement so its not like they are taking a higher bpm to mean more accuracy either.

 

Welcome to my conundrum...ugh. Will be interested to see any replies.

 

agreed, I am just trying to understand the conventions, because it seems perhaps there are differences in how HPC designation was done, vs the later use of Chronometre designation. If I understand correctly HPC can be either chronograph or time only, but Chronometre is time only, and comes with a certificate?

I feel like I have seen multiple examples now of HPC dials without serialized movements, so it makes me wonder, are they all really frankens? As to the later use of Chronometre, I am less familiar, and less researched, and it seems more formal, with certificate, so I am less comfortable without serialized mvmt....

 

Perhaps the clincher for the HPC designation would be an example of any additional paperwork that was supplied with the watch. Did this have any method for identifing the particular watch, like a serial number?

 

If it means high precision, then it would not have a movement marked un adjusted.

 

yes makes sense, this line of thinking seems reasonable.

so my next question becomes, anytime you see an HPC or Chronometer designated dial, without a serialized mvmt, then someone has been creating frankens?

 

Two more examples......

in the first the dial is marked HPC and the cal 263 does not seem to have any special markings...




second example, dial is marked HPC, at least "unadjusted" is missing from the bridge, but I don't see a mvmt serial, perhaps it is being covered by the oscillating weight?

 

Here is another HPC example with no markings of any kind on the cal 263. Seller says NOS, unworn, but seems like wrong crown and strap is much later period UG, so perhaps shenanigans?

 

Have we established any rules at all to date on HPC ? I feel like we are lost in the weeds........

 

this is one lovely example.

 

We have definitely not got to the bottom of this but here's what I think we do know:

- There is at least one UG advert showing a watch with 'HPC' on the dial (Sala P224) and therefore it's quite likely that watches left the factory with HPC dials

- Sala (P220) explains that it stands for High Precision Chronometer. I'm not aware of any additional proof that this is correct.

- We see HPC on chronographs and time-only watches.

- We only see 'Chronometre' on time-only watches. These all have serialised movements. There is a good thread here about verifying chronometres https://omegaforums.net/threads/universal-geneve-chronometre-how-to-verify.81943/

- What is clear is that HPC and 'Chronometre' dial designations did not mean the same thing. It was not simply that one came before the other; they co-existed.

- I am not aware of a single watch with an HPC dial that has the features that I would expect to see on a chronometre movement e.g. I've not seen an HPC watch with a bumper movement without 'unadjusted' on the bridge.

- Perhaps watches with HPC dials were sold in countries with less stringent regulations regarding chronometers? Or perhaps it was purely a marketing strategy and actually meant very little at all? What is puzzling however is how few HPC dials we see. If it meant very little and watches didn't have to pass stringent tests in order to have the HPC designation, then why not put it on more watches?

Here's an HPC Polerouter that I picked up recently. The Cal 138ss movement is completely standard without serial number etc.

 

Yes I follow your logic, and agree. My first question would be if we have ever seen a single example of an HPC dial WITH any special markings on the mvmt? I cannot recall offhand. I know we have seen many many examples of HPC without any special markings on the mvmt. In fact so many it starts to confuse me, as I cannot imagine that every single one of these examples suggests a transplanted dial, its just too improbable.

 

From the catalogue of the '100 years UG' auction by AQ in 1994 (also interesting: Compax at top with leaf hands and double 45 (I have a double 45 as well but unfortunately without leaf hands)):

 

Double 45:

 

I wonder if this is a misunderstanding that has been perpetuated, because we don't seem to be finding evidence of HPC dial watches being tested at Le Bureau de CDC ??

 

Seems not that logic to me as well. As far as I know they tested movements which would be delivered as movement only (i.e. not installed in a case). If they tested complete watches it may have made sense to just sell them afterwards

 

As I understand it, before COSC was formed in 1973, there were various rival local offices evaluating movements with differing approaches and levels of rigour.

Perhaps the watches marked 'chronometre' were evaluated in a different office from watches marked 'HPC' and hence a completely different approach was used?

HPC cannot surely mean nothing at all as otherwise why would we see it on so few watches and why is it used in UG advertising?

 

Agreed. But the main problem we are facing is there seems to be no criteria at to evaluate a HPC dialed watch ?