Can someone explain NFTs (Non-fungible tokens) and yes I have googled it.

JimInOz · Dec 16, 2021

Larry S
This was good prep for the call I just had with the kid. He’s had two raises and hasn’t upped his 401k contribution. Still he is selling me on investing in Crypto and NFT’s … “Get that contribution up and we’ll talk about investing in the platforms making the real money off this I said.” After a long recap of his real money opportunities including his 401K, stewardship of his Ameritrade investments (which I encouraged)and taking control of a Vanguard account his grandfather set up for him and gradually converting to Roth, he’s promised to up his 401k % tomorrow and push through with change of control on Vanguard. Yes @Foo2rama , its gaming that has him all excited about this.

You sound like a wise father 👍.

In my last ten years at work I contributed to my employer's 9% superannuation contribution. This had the effect of reducing my yearly taxable income and allowing me to pump up my super by about 25% of my salary per year, for a couple of years I was contributing about $45k but then the government began limiting the amount. The last year I think I was limited to about $25K (plus employer 9%).

We are now in a position to live quite comfortably in retirement.

I think your son should heed your advice.

Foo2rama · Dec 16, 2021

Larry S
This was good prep for the call I just had with the kid. He’s had two raises and hasn’t upped his 401k contribution. Still he is selling me on investing in Crypto and NFT’s … “Get that contribution up and we’ll talk about investing in the platforms making the real money off this I said.” After a long recap of his real money opportunities including his 401K, stewardship of his Ameritrade investments (which I encouraged)and taking control of a Vanguard account his grandfather set up for him and gradually converting to Roth, he’s promised to up his 401k % tomorrow and push through with change of control on Vanguard. Yes @Foo2rama , its gaming that has him all excited about this.

Crypto and NFT are gambles, not investment strategies, regardless of what the fanbois invested in them continuing to go up with no tie to anything say.

At least 2 gaming companies have declared they wanted to do NFT's and got publically slapped down by their player bases and stopped development of them in the past few weeks.

If NFT and blockchain do go into video games, its going to be with companies that are not yet public. There is no public company that will develop the standards for this to be a crossplatform/game/environment at this time, so there is really nothing to invest in. If he wants to do Crypto, its pure gamble, they tied to demand made artificially by people that have it, not tied to anything at all in the real world, and are not actually very fluid. Try selling more then 40k of any crypto currency. If you try to sell less than 40k you get paid a percentage on the dollar of the actual value...

Foo2rama · Dec 16, 2021

JimInOz
Last computer games I played were these, so I don't have your problem 😁.

OMG I had forgotten about F-19 and it just preceding the public unveiling of the F-117...

Larry S · Dec 16, 2021

JimInOz
You sound like a wise father 👍.

In my last ten years at work I contributed to my employer's 9% superannuation contribution. This had the effect of reducing my yearly taxable income and allowing me to pump up my super by about 25% of my salary per year, for a couple of years I was contributing about $45k but then the government began limiting the amount. The last year I think I was limited to about $25K (plus employer 9%).

We are now in a position to live quite comfortably in retirement.

I think your son should heed your advice.

Same basic story I told him.

Observer · Dec 16, 2021

Foo2rama
Try selling more then 40k of any crypto currency. If you try to sell less than 40k you get paid a percentage on the dollar of the actual value...

What on earth are you talking about?

Observer · Dec 16, 2021

I regularly see people who believe in equities and/or physical gold claiming that crypto is a scam they want nothing to do with. Then I go where the crypto people are, and they think gold is a joke and equities are a scam. The Physical gold people reject everything else. I thought everyone understood the benefits of diversification. Stocks, distressed bonds, gold miners, and crypto have all been very good to me. Why anyone would reject any of them outright is a mystery to me.

Dan S · Dec 16, 2021

Observer
I regularly see people who believe in equities and/or physical gold claiming that crypto is a scam they want nothing to do with. Then I go where the crypto people are, and they think gold is a joke and equities are a scam. The Physical gold people reject everything else. I thought everyone understood the benefits of diversification. Stocks, distressed bonds, gold miners, and crypto have all been very good to me. Why anyone would reject any of them outright is a mystery to me.

Congratulations.

Foo2rama · Dec 16, 2021

Observer
What on earth are you talking about?

Where do you cash out over 50k in any cryptocurrency? None of the exchanges support amounts over that amount in 24 hours. Sorry, they updated to 50 k it was 40k last time I checked. If you have 200k in crypto you simply cannot turn that into any other form of currency quickly. God help you if you have 500k or more in crypto. You cannot spend it in any appreciable amount for real-world goods easily. his is not including fees all of the exchanges take when you withdrawal which is best case 2.49% and much higher in many cases.

Observer
I regularly see people who believe in equities and/or physical gold claiming that crypto is a scam they want nothing to do with. Then I go where the crypto people are, and they think gold is a joke and equities are a scam. The Physical gold people reject everything else. I thought everyone understood the benefits of diversification. Stocks, distressed bonds, gold miners, and crypto have all been very good to me. Why anyone would reject any of them outright is a mystery to me.

You are correct diversification is key. Gold is argued to hold value even if the world collapses hence some people believing in it.. I blame Monex for this thinking, which also drove Gold way past inflation 20 years ago, when it had been really really solid for hundreds of years.

Crypto is based on people owning crypto or believing in cryptos future agreeing to trade it for cash in limited amount. But again how is it tied to real world value. Well the argument that crypto fanbois use is that neither is any nations fiat currency that is no longer tied to gold. The problem is that is not how things work. A nations currency can never drop to zero, as that would imply that all businesses within that country had no value. Otherwise, you would be able to buy any company in that nation for pennies and take its assets out of country.

Hence why all investors I know Use crypto has a high risk high reward diversification in their portfolio. Cypto has major issues even outside of its liquidity, its toll on power and natural resources for building mining rigs is far from inconsequential and if used on a large scale gets exponentially worse..

Observer · Dec 16, 2021

Foo2rama
Where do you cash out over 50k in any cryptocurrency? None of the exchanges support amounts over that amount in 24 hours. Sorry, they updated to 50 k it was 40k last time I checked. If you have 200k in crypto you simply cannot turn that into any other form of currency quickly. God help you if you have 500k or more in crypto. You cannot spend it in any appreciable amount for real-world goods easily. his is not including fees all of the exchanges take when you withdrawal which is best case 2.49% and much higher in many cases.

You are correct diversification is key. Gold is argued to hold value even if the world collapses hence some people believing in it.. I blame Monex for this thinking, which also drove Gold way past inflation 20 years ago, when it had been really really solid for hundreds of years.

Crypto is based on people owning crypto or believing in cryptos future agreeing to trade it for cash in limited amount. But again how is it tied to real world value. Well the argument that crypto fanbois use is that neither is any nations fiat currency that is no longer tied to gold. The problem is that is not how things work. A nations currency can never drop to zero, as that would imply that all businesses within that country had no value. Otherwise, you would be able to buy any company in that nation for pennies and take its assets out of country.

Hence why all investors I know Use crypto has a high risk high reward diversification in their portfolio. Cypto has major issues even outside of its liquidity, its toll on power and natural resources for building mining rigs is far from inconsequential and if used on a large scale gets exponentially worse..

This is so riddled with inaccuracies I barely know where to begin. Coinbase Pro has no fee for withdrawals. There are daily limits, but the transfer to your bank is free. Trading crypto has fees, but no limits that I know of, and they are nowhere near high enough to significantly impact your returns. Other exchanges that allow on/offboarding of dollars are the same.

Many nations currencies have fallen to zero. Every fiat currency except the ones currently in use have done so.

Crypto prices are not based solely on a speculative expectation of future value. Many are largely based on their ability to streamline business processes through smart contracts.

Crypto's impact on power is far less than you've been told. With some blockchains it's extremely low. Most Bitcoin mining, which does use a large amount of power due to its proof of stake model, is done near renewable power sources.

This seems to be a very emotional argument for you, and maybe that's what's prevented you from doing any significant research before forming your opinions. Best of luck to you.

Foo2rama · Dec 16, 2021

Observer
This is so riddled with inaccuracies I barely know where to begin. Coinbase Pro has no fee for withdrawals. There are daily limits, but the transfer to your bank is free. Trading crypto has fees, but no limits that I know of, and they are nowhere near high enough to significantly impact your returns. Other exchanges that allow on/offboarding of dollars are the same.

Many nations currencies have fallen to zero. Every fiat currency except the ones currently in use have done so.

Crypto prices are not based solely on a speculative expectation of future value. Many are largely based on their ability to streamline business processes through smart contracts.

Crypto's impact on power is far less than you've been told. With some blockchains it's extremely low. Most Bitcoin mining, which does use a large amount of power due to its proof of stake model, is done near renewable power sources.

This seems to be a very emotional argument for you, and maybe that's what's prevented you from doing any significant research before forming your opinions. Best of luck to you.

There are minimal fees maker/taker when exchanging between different crypto currencies. Withdrawls into real money have fees and maximums.

I wouldn't say what I stated is riddeled with inaccucies. I literally looked at Coinbases withdrawal fees.

Name a currency of a nation with a GDP that fell even near zero?

Crypto's power use is high. Each transaction of bitcoin could power the normal US household for 60 days. So please tell me how bitcoin the most widely adopted crypto is feasible?

Bitcoin mining each year produces more e waste then all of the Netherlands as mining hardware has an 18 month shelf life.

So please tell me where to cash out my 250,000 in bitcoin for near full value within 24 hours. What can I buy with crypto besides nft's? Can I walk into a store and spend it to buy food?

nzshadow · Dec 16, 2021

FWIW my take on NFTs is that they are a beta/proof of concept for assigning ownership of digital products. Once all the 8bit jpeg malarkey has run its course we will know if the mechanics of NFTs are viable in Web 3.0

In the meantime, this beta/POC is a fantastic opportunity for money launderers & crime syndicates worldwide. (Plus a few governments as well).

Observer · Dec 16, 2021

Foo2rama
There are minimal fees maker/taker when exchanging between different crypto currencies. Withdrawls into real money have fees and maximums.

I wouldn't say what I stated is riddeled with inaccucies. I literally looked at Coinbases withdrawal fees.

Name a currency of a nation with a GDP that fell even near zero?

Crypto's power use is high. Each transaction of bitcoin could power the normal US household for 60 days. So please tell me how bitcoin the most widely adopted crypto is feasible?

Bitcoin mining each year produces more e waste then all of the Netherlands as mining hardware has an 18 month shelf life.

So please tell me where to cash out my 250,000 in bitcoin for near full value within 24 hours. What can I buy with crypto besides nft's? Can I walk into a store and spend it to buy food?

BTC was created as an alternative to the banking industry and consumes less than half the energy. If BTC uses as much energy as you say, where does it come from, and how is being paid for when the fees aren't that high?
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/res...-the-energy-of-the-banking-or-gold-industries

Coinbase fees for ACH withdrawals to your bank account are zero. Zero. Not 2.49% as you incorrectly claim. Zero.
https://help.coinbase.com/en/custody/managing-my-account/funding-your-account-with-usd

Tether is the most widely used cryptocurrency, not Bitcoin. Ethereum processes over three times as many daily transactions per day than BTC does. BTC, while being far faster than the archaic banking systems, is much slower than other blockchains. It's value lies in it's higher security.

The slowest part of moving your crypto back to the banking network is the banking network itself. You can't blame that on crypto. It would take you five days to finish moving your $250K out of Coinbase, and several more days to get it because of the limitations of the banking system, which hardly makes your case about the limitations of crypto.

Observer · Dec 17, 2021

nzshadow
FWIW my take on NFTs is that they are a beta/proof of concept for assigning ownership of digital products. Once all the 8bit jpeg malarkey has run its course we will know if the mechanics of NFTs are viable in Web 3.0

In the meantime, this beta/POC is a fantastic opportunity for money launderers & crime syndicates worldwide. (Plus a few governments as well).

Money is laundered primarily with dollars with the help of banks.
https://www.icij.org/investigations...y-serving-oligarchs-criminals-and-terrorists/

Foo2rama · Dec 17, 2021

Observer
BTC was created as an alternative to the banking industry and consumes less than half the energy. If BTC uses as much energy as you say, where does it come from, and how is being paid for when the fees aren't that high?
https://www.nasdaq.com/articles/research:-bitcoin-consumes-less-than-half-the-energy-of-the-banking-or-gold-industries

Coinbase fees for ACH withdrawals to your bank account are zero. Zero. Not 2.49% as you incorrectly claim. Zero.
https://help.coinbase.com/en/custody/managing-my-account/funding-your-account-with-usd

Tether is the most widely used cryptocurrency, not Bitcoin. Ethereum processes over three times as many daily transactions per day than BTC does. BTC, while being far faster than the archaic banking systems, is much slower than other blockchains. It's value lies in it's higher security.

The slowest part of moving your crypto back to the banking network is the banking network itself. You can't blame that on crypto. It would take you five days to finish moving your $250K out of Coinbase, and several more days to get it because of the limitations of the banking system, which hardly makes your case about the limitations of crypto.

your confusing ach into your account and deposit real money with withdrawal.

second it’s well documented the power consumption of bitcoin.

if you had been paying attention you would know traditionally most bitcoin was minted in China which wait for it…. Had free power to its citizens.

traditionally bitcoin mining at home used more power in the us then the minted bitcoin was worth when it was minted.

I’ve been involved in this world for over a decade. I think I know what I’m talking about.

cvalue13 · Dec 17, 2021

Real “old man yelling at a cloud” energy in this thread.

Crypto is essentially unregulated, and the markets and cultures around it are reminiscent of the Wild West.

Which is ironic, given that banking and centralized fiat currencies behaved quite similarly during the actual Wild West. (Not that long ago, btw.)

Over 50% of active investors aged between 18 and 35 have some position in cryptocurrency, Coin Base has a market cap in excess of $50 Billion, I can pay my AT&T bill and buy my coffee at Starbucks in cryptocurrency, and many major hedge funds have already diversified into this space, with many more expect to double down in the near term: Hedge funds expect to hold 7% of assets in crypto within five years (Financial Times)

Foo2rama
Try selling more then 40k of any crypto currency.

From the perspective of relevance to cryptocurrency (not to defend it, but instead to state it), you keep performing a fallacy when you say “try selling more than 40k” because what you’re really saying is “try converting a cryptocurrency into fiat currency.” That is analogous to saying “try taking 10,000 U.S. dollars into a traditional bank and exchange it for gold bars,” which you *also* can’t do.

A person with crypto can move or exchange hundreds of millions in crypto in a single instantaneous transaction via either the coin’s own blockchain or via tokens on its respective blockchain. These transactions are the crypto-equivalent of withdrawing US bills, moving US bills between different accounts, or exchanging US bills for Pesos, etc. It’s an exchange of the relevant currency for the same relevant currency.

On that view (again, not to defend it but to state it) being hung up on how quickly a person might convert crypto into a fiat currency is irrelevant - you’re mistakenly assuming crypto is merely a representation of the fiat (which it isn’t) any more than US bills are merely a representation of gold bars held somewhere in a vault (which it isn’t).

dsio · Dec 17, 2021

cvalue13
Real “old man yelling at a cloud” energy in this thread.

I actually find it works out to be more the opposite, the people most into crypto that I come across tend to be boomers that struggle with technology in general, and guys like Uber drivers, while the tech guys I know are highly skeptical of all of the players in the space and want nothing to do with it. None of my mates in infosec will even go near it, while the dudes that drive them to work are headfirst diving in.

Observer · Dec 17, 2021

Foo2rama
I’ve been involved in this world for over a decade. I think I know what I’m talking about.

Sorry, but evidence suggests otherwise.

For anyone who wants to understand:

Foo2rama · Dec 17, 2021

Observer
Sorry, but evidence suggests otherwise.

For anyone who wants to understand:

Yes someone said it in a YouTube video it must be true. Everyone else and multiple studies all say otherwise.

as @dsio said I’m one of those guys in tech that is highly skeptical. And yes I’m also in infosec at this point if my career.

@cvalue13 fiat currency is used as derogatory term by crypto fans. It’s not and there is nothing wrong with it.

Your analogy of not being able to buy gold instantly is somewhat incorrect. I think you would be surprised how easy it is to buy large volume of gold.

Again though gold is not liquid. Buy a house with it. Buy a car with it. It’s easier then crypto to convert large amounts.

look crypto has some advantages I’m not arguing that, but it’s cons when you start to understand how the entire thing works from an objective view it becomes unsustainable.

cvalue13 · Dec 17, 2021

dsio
I actually find it works out to be more the opposite, the people most into crypto that I come across tend to be boomers that struggle with technology in general, and guys like Uber drivers, while the tech guys I know are highly skeptical of all of the players in the space and want nothing to do with it. None of my mates in infosec will even go near it, while the dudes that drive them to work are headfirst diving in.

Your experience is that Boomers are the adopter demo, and that the incremental adoption or investment by prominent hedge funds, public equities, banks, Fortune 500 companies, credit cards, etc., is merely to cater to the chauffeur proletariat? 😁

I’m not surprised to find an interesting, eclectic, guy such as yourself runs in interesting circles of boomers with chauffeurs. 👍

In both the US and the UK Boomers account for ~8% to ~4%, respectively, of individual crypto ownership… the reasons for that in part likely reflected by the bulk of the discourse in this thread coming from boomers, ala “well, Im a grown up” and “confounded video games!” and “you’re a wise father to maximize your 401k.”

There are lots of, interesting, intelligent, critiques of cryptocurrencies and present-day NFT shenanigans!

But to be fair to crypto, there are also lots of interesting critiques of - for just one example - the current state of capital markets, etc.

I just think it’s at this point in crypto’s maturity a bit weird to dismiss out of hand as unusual the potential of crypto; it makes me self-conscious of being the modern version of the widespread critique that automobiles will never succeed because they scare horses too badly.

Foo2rama
@cvalue13 fiat currency is used as derogatory term by crypto fans. It’s not and there is nothing wrong with it.

I used the term “fiat” only because it’s conveniently brief and descriptive. That said, I think it’s a bit disingenuous to suggest that traditional capital markets, banking, and financial policy structures around “traditional” currency:

(1) weren’t themselves complete sh*tshows in their infancy, or
(2) aren’t still today rife with spooky features

Foo2rama
Your analogy of not being able to buy gold instantly is somewhat incorrect. I think you would be surprised how easy it is to buy large volume of gold.

I guess I would be surprised!!

cvalue13 · Dec 17, 2021

BTW, I’ve got maybe 1% of my portfolio in crypto and NFT, and am far from a crypto stan.

I’m in it less for the upside, and more for understanding and participating in this space that will be able to - for better or worse - deeply impact traditional markets: I think there are $2 Trillion in traditional equities on the market right now that are underlying crypto firms, so being ignorant or dismissive of the sector’s promise or threat I think we’ll with a percentage of my portfolio.

Can someone explain NFTs (Non-fungible tokens) and yes I have googled it.

JimInOz

Foo2rama

Foo2rama

Larry S

Observer

Observer

Dan S

Foo2rama

Observer

Foo2rama

nzshadow

Observer

Observer

Foo2rama

cvalue13

dsio

Observer

Foo2rama

cvalue13

cvalue13

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