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DaveK
··Yoda of YodelersThe bee’s knees! Haven’t that in many a year....
and just what the f*** does it mean anyway!!!
Bees knees is pretty much the both of you https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bee's knees
Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs
Bees knees is pretty much the both of you https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bee's knees
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Canuck
·Bees knees is pretty much the both of you https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bee's knees
What is this? The Omega Message Board, or a mutual admiration society?
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TexOmega
·From the ad copy, I am indeed a forward thinking gentleman seeking the rare combination of both accuracy and appearance in my strap watch.
14kt gold Hamilton "Square" for this PW thread!
@Duracuir1, Thank you for posting these vintage advertisements.
14kt gold Hamilton "Square" for this PW thread!
@Duracuir1, Thank you for posting these vintage advertisements.
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TexOmega
·American Waltham Watch Co. with a multicolored Fancy Dial and Louis XIV Hands
16s Model 1888 7j Grade 20 circa 1893
Coin silver case
16s Model 1888 7j Grade 20 circa 1893
Coin silver case
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Jones in LA
··Not in LA anymore.Dear OF Pocket Watch Buffs
I have always enjoyed looking through this thread and admiring the beautiful watches that are presented and discussed. I never imagined that I would come into possession of my own pocket watch, inherited through my family. It's a bittersweet story of how this happened. Within the last six weeks I lost both of my beloved parents. They survived Covid (never infected), got vaccinated very early on, and then passed away as a result of other, natural causes. My father was 87 years old and my mother was 86. Each died within two weeks of their next birthday. They had been married for 65 years.
When I was going through some things in their home, within a chest of drawers I found the pocket watch shown below. I had no idea this watch was in our family and I have no idea to whom it originally belonged. My best guess is that it belonged to my mother's father, but I will never be 100% certain as there are no living individuals who could provide information on its origin.
Based on some cursory Internet research this is what I have found:
Model: 1924 Col[onial] b
Estimated Production Year: 1924
Size: 12s
Not Adjusted, Not Railroad Grade
The watch does not run, but the hands move smoothly when the crown is pulled and rotated. The winding train of gears moves smoothly when the crown is turned, but there is little resistance -- maybe due to a broken or detached mainspring?
Some comments on the photos: the exterior case looks much less brassy than the photos suggest; to me, the exterior case looks more silvery than brassy. The interior of the case looks as brassy as the photos indicate.
I intend to have this watch repaired and serviced in the not-too-distant future. Ahead of that, I have a few questions for our resident experts.
1. The crystal seems to be made of plastic, a material that did not exist in 1924. My guess is that the current crystal is a mid-century replacement -- is that a reasonable assumption?
2. If the crystal is indeed made of acrylic, would be OK if I tried to clean it up a bit with Polywatch?
3. There appears to be a screw missing on the edge of the movement. Is it indeed missing, or just a redundant screw-hole?
4. Can you watchmaker-types tell me what the watchmaker inscriptions might mean? I can't make any sense of them.
5. What is the case likely made of?
6. What kind of number is that on the inside case back, under "PAT'S PEND'G"?
7. What is "Wadsworth"?
And, any other comments and information from our experts are eagerly welcomed. Thanks 😀
I have always enjoyed looking through this thread and admiring the beautiful watches that are presented and discussed. I never imagined that I would come into possession of my own pocket watch, inherited through my family. It's a bittersweet story of how this happened. Within the last six weeks I lost both of my beloved parents. They survived Covid (never infected), got vaccinated very early on, and then passed away as a result of other, natural causes. My father was 87 years old and my mother was 86. Each died within two weeks of their next birthday. They had been married for 65 years.
When I was going through some things in their home, within a chest of drawers I found the pocket watch shown below. I had no idea this watch was in our family and I have no idea to whom it originally belonged. My best guess is that it belonged to my mother's father, but I will never be 100% certain as there are no living individuals who could provide information on its origin.
Based on some cursory Internet research this is what I have found:
Model: 1924 Col[onial] b
Estimated Production Year: 1924
Size: 12s
Not Adjusted, Not Railroad Grade
The watch does not run, but the hands move smoothly when the crown is pulled and rotated. The winding train of gears moves smoothly when the crown is turned, but there is little resistance -- maybe due to a broken or detached mainspring?
Some comments on the photos: the exterior case looks much less brassy than the photos suggest; to me, the exterior case looks more silvery than brassy. The interior of the case looks as brassy as the photos indicate.
I intend to have this watch repaired and serviced in the not-too-distant future. Ahead of that, I have a few questions for our resident experts.
1. The crystal seems to be made of plastic, a material that did not exist in 1924. My guess is that the current crystal is a mid-century replacement -- is that a reasonable assumption?
2. If the crystal is indeed made of acrylic, would be OK if I tried to clean it up a bit with Polywatch?
3. There appears to be a screw missing on the edge of the movement. Is it indeed missing, or just a redundant screw-hole?
4. Can you watchmaker-types tell me what the watchmaker inscriptions might mean? I can't make any sense of them.
5. What is the case likely made of?
6. What kind of number is that on the inside case back, under "PAT'S PEND'G"?
7. What is "Wadsworth"?
And, any other comments and information from our experts are eagerly welcomed. Thanks 😀
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesSo sorry for your loss Jones in LA! My heart goes out to you. We put on our best face here on the Forum, but our lives are more complicated, sometimes more tragic than what is revealed in Forum posts.
The sorting out of family finances, estates, and the mountain of "stuff" is so stressful which is wearing in the extreme. My sister and I are working through that now and beginning to see light at the end of that tunnel with the last real estate being sold at this time. We lost our mother in October of 2019 (dementia - 85) and our dad in November of 2020 (94). COVID was the nudge that sent him on, agedness and a host of age related issues were the real reasons. My parents were married for 64 years.
Didn't mean to get off into that. There are watches in the stuff found. Not valuable watches, but a couple that I'd love to restore. And, like you I don't recall the complete history of a pre-war Elgin 17 jewel watch that resembles the style and era of TexOmega's 14kt Hamilton he's featured above. I think it was my great grandfather's on my mother's side. No one left to ask now. My dad's simple 1960s Gruen turned up. It was his everything watch and its chome plated case is in sad shape. My watchmaker recommended that the Elgin wasn't worth a rehab and he also doesn't like results gained in replating wristwatch cases as the Gruen needs. I think I need a second opinion. It's not always about the money when it comes to watch restoration.
Anyway, I've been on a mission to acquaint myself with pocket watches so I'll have a go at your questions, almost as a test to see how the real experts will grade me.
I intend to have this watch serviced in the not-too-distant future. Ahead of that, I have a few questions for our resident experts.
1. The crystal seems to be made of plastic, a material that did not exist in 1924. My guess is that the current crystal is a mid-century replacement -- is that a reasonable assumption?
Sounds reasonable to me. I'm seeing pocket watches with plastic crystals on Ebay, some of which are extensively yellowed. One seller claimed it was part of the watch's charm, but it looks more like a urine sample to me and I find it to be off putting. Someone else will have to tell us when plastic crystals were introduced.
2. If the crystal is indeed made of acrylic, would be OK if I tried to clean it up a bit with Polywatch?
I'd try it, if for nothing else to gain the experience through observation of the results. Then I'd have a clean clear replacement fitted. I wonder if proper reproduction mineral glass crystals are generally available or one must go with acrylic reproductions?
3. There appears to be a screw missing on the edge of the movement. Is it indeed missing, or just a redundant screw-hole?
That's a missing screw. Experts will elaborate on that. I observe Ebay pocket watch offerings with missing screws with some regularity.
4. Can you watchmaker-types tell me what the watchmaker inscriptions might mean? I can't make any sense of them.
I would love to be able to decode watchmaker markings. Apparently there isn't much standardization on markings and I'm not clever enough to divine much more than the occasional date from them.
5. What is the case likely made of?
Rolled gold. I just learned that here a few pages back. Canuck posted that a 25 year case was a bit superior to the 10 year or 20 year cases because it was less prone to wear through the gold, which was applied in thicker layers.
6. What kind of number is that on the inside case back, under "PAT'S PEND'G"?
The case's number, I think. Apparently not to correspond with the watch's serial number. I don't know yet whether these numbers may be researched to find out when the case was made or if they point to a case's style.
7. What is "Wadsworth"?
The company that manufactured the watch's case.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/case-companies/wadsworth-watch-case-co
I'm reading up on pocket watches and their companies. Feel disloyal to Omega Forums somehow, but just joined the National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors forum. Good source for data and information of all kinds, the information being delivered with a healthy dose of opinion. From what I read there the regulars don't suffer fools gladly. I'm thick skinned and inured to anything anyone on a forum could say to me so that doesn't matter. Good site. https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/wadsworth-watch-case-co.50932/
I foresee a pocket watch accumulation here at the Home For Wayward Watches in future, to the point that I've gathered in some of DaveK's neato lanyards so I can be ready to open the new pocket watch wing of the Home.
The sorting out of family finances, estates, and the mountain of "stuff" is so stressful which is wearing in the extreme. My sister and I are working through that now and beginning to see light at the end of that tunnel with the last real estate being sold at this time. We lost our mother in October of 2019 (dementia - 85) and our dad in November of 2020 (94). COVID was the nudge that sent him on, agedness and a host of age related issues were the real reasons. My parents were married for 64 years.
Didn't mean to get off into that. There are watches in the stuff found. Not valuable watches, but a couple that I'd love to restore. And, like you I don't recall the complete history of a pre-war Elgin 17 jewel watch that resembles the style and era of TexOmega's 14kt Hamilton he's featured above. I think it was my great grandfather's on my mother's side. No one left to ask now. My dad's simple 1960s Gruen turned up. It was his everything watch and its chome plated case is in sad shape. My watchmaker recommended that the Elgin wasn't worth a rehab and he also doesn't like results gained in replating wristwatch cases as the Gruen needs. I think I need a second opinion. It's not always about the money when it comes to watch restoration.
Anyway, I've been on a mission to acquaint myself with pocket watches so I'll have a go at your questions, almost as a test to see how the real experts will grade me.
I intend to have this watch serviced in the not-too-distant future. Ahead of that, I have a few questions for our resident experts.
1. The crystal seems to be made of plastic, a material that did not exist in 1924. My guess is that the current crystal is a mid-century replacement -- is that a reasonable assumption?
Sounds reasonable to me. I'm seeing pocket watches with plastic crystals on Ebay, some of which are extensively yellowed. One seller claimed it was part of the watch's charm, but it looks more like a urine sample to me and I find it to be off putting. Someone else will have to tell us when plastic crystals were introduced.
2. If the crystal is indeed made of acrylic, would be OK if I tried to clean it up a bit with Polywatch?
I'd try it, if for nothing else to gain the experience through observation of the results. Then I'd have a clean clear replacement fitted. I wonder if proper reproduction mineral glass crystals are generally available or one must go with acrylic reproductions?
3. There appears to be a screw missing on the edge of the movement. Is it indeed missing, or just a redundant screw-hole?
That's a missing screw. Experts will elaborate on that. I observe Ebay pocket watch offerings with missing screws with some regularity.
4. Can you watchmaker-types tell me what the watchmaker inscriptions might mean? I can't make any sense of them.
I would love to be able to decode watchmaker markings. Apparently there isn't much standardization on markings and I'm not clever enough to divine much more than the occasional date from them.
5. What is the case likely made of?
Rolled gold. I just learned that here a few pages back. Canuck posted that a 25 year case was a bit superior to the 10 year or 20 year cases because it was less prone to wear through the gold, which was applied in thicker layers.
6. What kind of number is that on the inside case back, under "PAT'S PEND'G"?
The case's number, I think. Apparently not to correspond with the watch's serial number. I don't know yet whether these numbers may be researched to find out when the case was made or if they point to a case's style.
7. What is "Wadsworth"?
The company that manufactured the watch's case.
https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/guide/case-companies/wadsworth-watch-case-co
I'm reading up on pocket watches and their companies. Feel disloyal to Omega Forums somehow, but just joined the National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors forum. Good source for data and information of all kinds, the information being delivered with a healthy dose of opinion. From what I read there the regulars don't suffer fools gladly. I'm thick skinned and inured to anything anyone on a forum could say to me so that doesn't matter. Good site. https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/wadsworth-watch-case-co.50932/
I foresee a pocket watch accumulation here at the Home For Wayward Watches in future, to the point that I've gathered in some of DaveK's neato lanyards so I can be ready to open the new pocket watch wing of the Home.
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TexOmega
·Sorry about your parents.
I can't add much, but I'd get a glass crystal, it shows well forever, but a new acrylic one will be fine, too.
To me, that one is too far gone.....but as suggested....you can practice on it
Gold filled rather than rolled gold here in the US
Service it and pass it on to the youngsters at the appropriate time.
Oh, the WM codes only mean something to the WM who inscribed it
I can't add much, but I'd get a glass crystal, it shows well forever, but a new acrylic one will be fine, too.
To me, that one is too far gone.....but as suggested....you can practice on it
Gold filled rather than rolled gold here in the US
Service it and pass it on to the youngsters at the appropriate time.
Oh, the WM codes only mean something to the WM who inscribed it
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Jones in LA
··Not in LA anymore.Thank you so much @noelekal for your kind thoughts, and please receive my condolences on your recent losses. It makes sense that two guys born in 1957 would be at this point in their lives at about the same time.
And thank you for your responses to my questions. I'll post a photo of the result of my Polywatch experiment. I had never heard of Rolled Gold before (other than the yummy pretzels), which explains the brassy appearance.
And thank you for your responses to my questions. I'll post a photo of the result of my Polywatch experiment. I had never heard of Rolled Gold before (other than the yummy pretzels), which explains the brassy appearance.
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Jones in LA
··Not in LA anymore.Sorry about your parents.
I can't add much, but I'd get a glass crystal, it shows well forever, but an acrylic one will be fine, too.
Gold filled rather than rolled gold here in the US
Service it and pass it on to the youngsters at the appropriate time.
Oh, the WM codes only mean something to the WM who inscribed it
Thanks @TexOmega . And yes, I'd prefer glass in this instance, as much as I like the look of acrylic on wristwatches.
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noelekal
··Home For Wayward WatchesThere ya' go. TexOmega graded papers and counted off for rolled gold rather than gold filled. I'm unclear on the meanings of those terms.
Your Waltham is lovely by the way, both the case style and style of dial are dramatic and appealing.
I also like TexOmega's decorated multicolored dial he featured today. Wouldn't mind eventually adding one of those to the collection.
I'm appreciating all the watches and the Hamilton ads that Duracuir1 has posted. I'm still reading through those ads.
Your Waltham is lovely by the way, both the case style and style of dial are dramatic and appealing.
I also like TexOmega's decorated multicolored dial he featured today. Wouldn't mind eventually adding one of those to the collection.
I'm appreciating all the watches and the Hamilton ads that Duracuir1 has posted. I'm still reading through those ads.
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TexOmega
·1956 vintage here...... mom's 94 and brother and I are working the process to sell her house and empty the contents.
Physically healthy, living in Memory Care and still knows us.....so we are happy.
Physically healthy, living in Memory Care and still knows us.....so we are happy.
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TexOmega
·There ya' go. TexOmega graded papers and counted off for rolled gold rather than gold filled. I'm unclear on the meanings of those terms.
Your Waltham is lovely by the way, both the case style and style of dial are dramatic and appealing.
I also like TexOmega's decorated multicolored dial he featured today. Wouldn't mind eventually adding one of those to the collection.
I'm appreciating all the watches and the Hamilton ads that Duracuir1 has posted. I'm still reading through those ads.
Two people(Canuck and Me) separated by a common language.....but there are manufacturing differences.
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Fritz
·Thanks @TexOmega . And yes, I'd prefer glass in this instance, as much as I like the look of acrylic on wristwatches.
Early Acrylic crystals were available before WW2 as were celluloid. Both had the habit of yellowing quickly as these materials were not UV stabilized and degraded very quickly as soon as the sun hit them. Because of this they were banned by many railroads. I wouldn’t try to polish that crystal as this material also embrittles with age and will likely just crumble if you lean on it, possibly damaging the face in the process. Personally I’d replace it. A beautiful little watch, well worth getting serviced, wear it often!
about now somebody usually chimes in with a shameless plug for @DaveK ’s amazing patented watch straps... cue the music!
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Canuck
·Condolences on your sad news. Both my parents passed away 46 years ago. You’ll heal, but never lose the memories.
Your crystal is typical of the type. As they oxidize, they emit corrosive gases, which in your case, has ruined the hands! Perhaps beyond salvaging them. Glass is superior to plastic, but modern acrylic crystal will do. And they don’t do what yours has done. In short, get it outta there ASAP! You’ll never be able to salvage it!
Gold colour cases are usually, gold filled, rolled gold plate, or electroplated. Your 25 year case is gold filled which means that about 5% (1/20th) of the weight of the case is hard gold alloy. 95% would likely be brass. GF and RGP material is produced by fusing a thin sheet of karat gold alloy to a thick sheet of base metal. The resulting block of metal is run through a rolling mill and annealed as many times as necessary to end up with a sheet of metal (still 5%gold) of the desired thickness. Punch presses form the sheet into components of the desired shape, and the item (watch case) is finished. RGP is formed the same way, but this material is 1/30th hard gold alloy.
Electroplating is done by a galvanic bath. Many jurisdictions legislate that such items can only be called “gold colour”!
As to the missing screw. Have the watch serviced by someone who won’t try to jam a SWISS screw into that location. American companies used a finer pitch than the Swiss. Screws are available.
Sounds like the mainspring may be broken. But the watch should also be serviced, and those sadly deteriorated hands replaced.
Keep us posted.
Your crystal is typical of the type. As they oxidize, they emit corrosive gases, which in your case, has ruined the hands! Perhaps beyond salvaging them. Glass is superior to plastic, but modern acrylic crystal will do. And they don’t do what yours has done. In short, get it outta there ASAP! You’ll never be able to salvage it!
Gold colour cases are usually, gold filled, rolled gold plate, or electroplated. Your 25 year case is gold filled which means that about 5% (1/20th) of the weight of the case is hard gold alloy. 95% would likely be brass. GF and RGP material is produced by fusing a thin sheet of karat gold alloy to a thick sheet of base metal. The resulting block of metal is run through a rolling mill and annealed as many times as necessary to end up with a sheet of metal (still 5%gold) of the desired thickness. Punch presses form the sheet into components of the desired shape, and the item (watch case) is finished. RGP is formed the same way, but this material is 1/30th hard gold alloy.
Electroplating is done by a galvanic bath. Many jurisdictions legislate that such items can only be called “gold colour”!
As to the missing screw. Have the watch serviced by someone who won’t try to jam a SWISS screw into that location. American companies used a finer pitch than the Swiss. Screws are available.
Sounds like the mainspring may be broken. But the watch should also be serviced, and those sadly deteriorated hands replaced.
Keep us posted.
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Jones in LA
··Not in LA anymore.Condolences on your sad news. Both my parents passed away 46 years ago. You’ll heal, but never lose the memories.
Your crystal is typical of the type. As they oxidize, they emit corrosive gases, which in your case, has ruined the hands! Perhaps beyond salvaging them. Glass is superior to plastic, but modern acrylic crystal will do. And they don’t do what yours has done. In short, get it outta there ASAP! You’ll never be able to salvage it!
Gold colour cases are usually, gold filled, rolled gold plate, or electroplated. Your 25 year case is gold filled which means that about 5% (1/20th) of the weight of the case is hard gold alloy. 95% would likely be brass. GF and RGP material is produced by fusing a thin sheet of karat gold alloy to a thick sheet of base metal. The resulting block of metal is run through a rolling mill and annealed as many times as necessary to end up with a sheet of metal (still 5%gold) of the desired thickness. Punch presses form the sheet into components of the desired shape, and the item (watch case) is finished. RGP is formed the same way, but this material is 1/30th hard gold alloy.
Electroplating is done by a galvanic bath. Many jurisdictions legislate that such items can only be called “gold colour”!
As to the missing screw. Have the watch serviced by someone who won’t try to jam a SWISS screw into that location. American companies used a finer pitch than the Swiss. Screws are available.
Sounds like the mainspring may be broken. But the watch should also be serviced, and those sadly deteriorated hands replaced.
Keep us posted.
Yikes! Thanks @Canuck (and @Fritz) for the heads-up on the crystal, and hands. No Polywatch!
And thanks for the detailed info on the case, too -- very interesting.
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DaveK
··Yoda of Yodelers@Jones in LA and @noelekal, so sorry to hear what you and your family’s have experienced.
The watchmaker’s service marks are a very cool feature on pocket watches in particular. They tell quite a story, even if we can’t speak the language. They do speak to the watch being worn for many years, and cared for regularly.
The watchmaker’s service marks are a very cool feature on pocket watches in particular. They tell quite a story, even if we can’t speak the language. They do speak to the watch being worn for many years, and cared for regularly.
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Jones in LA
··Not in LA anymore.@Jones in LA and @noelekal, so sorry to hear what you and your family’s have experienced.
The watchmaker’s service marks are a very cool feature on pocket watches in particular. They tell quite a story, even if we can’t speak the language. They do speak to the watch being worn for many years, and cared for regularly.
Thanks, @DaveK . It just occurred to me that those numbers could be service ledger numbers, as the five numbers stacked together are increasing in value. A couple of the other numbers have an "E" prefix, and my grandfather's last name began with the letter E. Who knows...?
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DaveK
··Yoda of YodelersThanks, @DaveK . It just occurred to me that those numbers could be service ledger numbers, as the five numbers stacked together are increasing in value. A couple of the other numbers have an "E" prefix, and my grandfather's last name began with the letter E. Who knows...?
My understanding is that watchmakers used to vandalize the case with one of these numbers/codes each time they serviced it. So it is a ledger of sorts. Earlier in this thread (I recall) @Canuck talked about a watch that he also has the written service records for. I posted earlier about my ‘45 Hamilton railroader with two distinct watchmaker’s handwriting https://omegaforums.net/threads/calling-all-pocket-watch-buffs.127856/page-52#post-1793989. Something that I quite enjoy
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Canuck
·My understanding is that watchmakers used to vandalize the case with one of these numbers/codes each time they serviced it. So it is a ledger of sorts. Earlier in this thread (I recall) @Canuck talked about a watch that he also has the written service records for. I posted earlier about my ‘45 Hamilton railroader with two distinct watchmaker’s handwriting https://omegaforums.net/threads/calling-all-pocket-watch-buffs.127856/page-52#post-1793989. Something that I quite enjoy
My favourite Waltham Crescent Street belonged to a Canadian Pacific Railway engineer for his entire 45 year career with CPR. The case back has 33 repair numbers hand scribed in tiny characters, all the the same hand, all neatly placed in columns, ranging from the first repair in 1917, to the latest in the late 1950s. Blind luck (and connections), and I now have a complete abstract covering what was done, and when it was done. The same watch inspector looked after that watch for close to 40 years.