Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Canuck · May 26, 2021

A lot of the information given in the data I’ve posted for your two Walthams did come from information compiled by Waltham. But some of the information has been gleaned from the Waltham records by avid collectors and others who have analyzed factory records. This is true with most of the records from most of the American watch factories. As to the matching numbers on the components of the 14-karat case..........case makers did the same with gold filled, sterling, and base metal cases. In fact, if you were to see your two Walthams dismantled, you would the the movement serial number stamped into all the plates and bridges (but not the wheels and internal parts). This was all done to keep these parts together during the manufacturing process. It may take weeks, or even months, from the time a particular movement was started, until it was finished. These parts had to stay together during the process. Aren’t pocket watches interesting?

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

Canuck
It may take weeks, or even months, from the time a particular movement was started, until it was finished. These parts had to stay together during the process. Aren’t pocket watches interesting?

Yes. Very interesting. And I thought some of my Omega wristwatches were old.......these pocket watches are ancient.

The way I understand it, when these pocket watches were new, you would go to a jeweler who would have new movements in movement cases with various dials and the jeweler would explain which movements would fit in which cases and you would pick a combination. There is no record of which movements were put into what cases other than at the jeweler and there really is no rhyme or reason to it.

Again, great info. Thanks. You seem very knowledgeable.

ScDevon · May 26, 2021

Here’s a little more on the other watch. Under the first case back, it says “Keystone Watch Case Co. with the Keystone symbol and a serial number that’s probably meaningless. Under the second cover it says “Guaranteed ‘J Boss’ 20 Years” and another Keystone symbol and a matching number. No gold karat stamps. There are a few dings on the rim of the case in the rear under both rear covers, but it doesn't affect anything and it's inside anyway. Difficult to photograph. A few pieces of dust under the glass, but the dial is near perfect. Loose dust on it only. Nice jeweled movement. The bridge layout and the separate bridge / cock for the escape wheel pivot just fascinates me.

Canuck · May 27, 2021

The “20 years” stamp inside the front and/or rear covers indicates the case is gold-filled. A layer of hard gold alloy over probably engraver’s brass. The ratio of gold to metal is thought to be 1/20th (by weight), so the layer is thin. The 20-years means the case maker guaranteed the plating wouldn’t wear through to the brass in 20 years. 25 year gold filled is better. 10 year gold filled (often called rolled gold plated) is not so good. Cases are usually a veneer of gold alloy on the outside of the case, and electro plated on the inside. It is not possible to the best of my knowledge to measure the thickness of gold electroplating, it is that thin.

The separate bridge/cock on the escape wheel is called a false bridge.......it is integral to the main train bridge as shown on the train bridge of the same movement as yours.

Then there are movements that actually have separate escape wheel (and 4th wheel) bridges as shown at A in this dismantled Hamilton pocket watch.

river rat · May 27, 2021

Here is a issued Lemania Deck watch / clock was issued to the Italian Navy maybe right after WW2. Was lucky to get one with the wall mount that missing on most I seen for sale. I guess you can call this a very large pocket watch that wont fit in your pocket

river rat · May 27, 2021

maanu
Newbie but military inspired.

Saw I think that one for sale at the MWR PX if the same one great price. I even thought about it but was slow.

ScDevon · May 27, 2021

Canuck
The 20-years means the case maker guaranteed the plating wouldn’t wear through to the brass in 20 years. 25 year gold filled is better.

The separate bridge/cock on the escape wheel is called a false bridge.......it is integral to the main train bridge as shown on the train bridge of the same movement as yours.

Then there are movements that actually have separate escape wheel (and 4th wheel) bridges as shown at A in this dismantled Hamilton pocket watch.

That Hamilton movement is a work of art too. Hamilton really knew their stuff back then. Thanks for clearing up the bridge designs. Great to know.

Had you ever heard of that other case maker "Hamann and Koch" on the other watch with the 14k case? I'm wondering if it was a common case or if it's just a name stamped onto it by a jewelry store.

Many thanks!

ScDevon · May 27, 2021

river rat
Here is a issued Lemania Deck watch / clock was issued to the Italian Navy maybe right after WW2.

That's a serious piece of hardware and in great condition considering the high humidity / salt air these must have been exposed to. It's really nice.

Canuck · May 27, 2021

S ScDevon
That Hamilton movement is a work of art too. Hamilton really knew their stuff back then. Thanks for clearing up the bridge designs. Great to know.

Had you ever heard of that other case maker "Hamann and Koch" on the other watch with the 14k case? I'm wondering if it was a common case or if it's just a name stamped onto it by a jewelry store.

Many thanks!

I’m not at home right now. I’ll check Warren Neibling’s book on American watch case makers, and get back to you.

TexOmega · May 27, 2021

Elgin BW Raymond
16s 19j Model 15 Grade 455
Circa 1920
Metal Montgomery dial with Canadian Marking
RR grade but not sure if it would have been approved with this dial in gold color

ScDevon · May 27, 2021

That dial is mint, TexOmega. I like the "18" in the seconds dial. Old pocket watch dials seem to hold up better than wristwatch dials of equal age. Maybe pocket watches didn't get wet as often and they were better taken care of or it could have been careless hand washing with wrist watches before cases were at least water resistant.

DaveK · May 27, 2021

S ScDevon
That dial is mint, TexOmega. I like the "18" in the seconds dial. Old pocket watch dials seem to hold up better than wristwatch dials of equal age. Maybe pocket watches didn't get wet as often and they were better taken care of or it could have been careless hand washing with wrist watches before cases were at least water resistant.

The enamel pocket watch dials will almost last forever if treated well. Melamine dials may or may not hold up so well. The metal dials are pretty cool 😎

Canuck · May 27, 2021

TexOmega
Elgin BW Raymond
16s 19j Model 15 Grade 455
Metal Montgomery dial with Canadian Marking
RR grade but not sure if it would have been approved with this dial in gold color

@TexOmega ,

While the specifications set down by Webb Ball seem engraved in stone (including a white dial), many general time inspectors on many railroads used Ball’s standards only as a guide.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/22244662

If I am reading your S# correctly, the data shows that movement to be railroad standard, and that could well have been sufficient for many general time inspectors. I often check the service marks inside the case back as a form of judging whether a watch was ever in the hands of a watch inspector. Usually, you will find numerous repair marks all coded by the same repairer. Railroad standard watches were available to the general public.........anyone who wanted to shell out for the added cost of a watch of the standard of your Elgin. I wouldn’t be at all surprised that if a railroad watch inspector determined its performance to be up to standard, it could have been approved.

DaveK · May 27, 2021

The caseback of my ‘45 Hamilton 992b, you can see the same hand making the service marks on the top portion, and someone else (with better penmanship) preceding/taking over on the bottom portion.

Edit: If someone is compiling a list of Canadian railroad repair marks, this watch was in service on the CPR and the owner was based out of Winnipeg

Canuck · May 27, 2021

I have a 1908 model Waltham Crescent Street that served a fellow who worked as a fireman and engineer for the CPR from 1917 until 1962 (44 years), and over that time, the watch was serviced 33 times by the same watch inspector! It was serviced twice by someone else, and once by me. The 33 repair numbers, all in neat, orderly columns, all preceded by the same initials is a testament that it was used by a railroader.

The list of repairs: (How did I get that list? That’s a story unto itself!)

ScDevon · May 27, 2021

Canuck
The list of repairs: (How did I get that list? That’s a story unto itself!)

Nice find. Three balance staffs and a hole jewel in 3-4 months in 1931. Back then a watch that was dropped or banged hard was almost guaranteed to break a balance staff pivot or a jewel or both. Imagine how quickly those old timers could strip and service these movements back then when that's all they did day in and day out. A busy shop would have drawers full of factory parts. Fun to imagine today.

TexOmega · May 27, 2021

Canuck
@TexOmega ,

While the specifications set down by Webb Ball seem engraved in stone (including a white dial), many general time inspectors on many railroads used Ball’s standards only as a guide.

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/elgin/22244662

If I am reading your S# correctly, the data shows that movement to be railroad standard, and that could well have been sufficient for many general time inspectors. I often check the service marks inside the case back as a form of judging whether a watch was ever in the hands of a watch inspector. Usually, you will find numerous repair marks all coded by the same repairer. Railroad standard watches were available to the general public.........anyone who wanted to shell out for the added cost of a watch of the standard of your Elgin. I wouldn’t be at all surprised that if a railroad watch inspector determined its performance to be up to standard, it could have been approved.

I did not post a picture of the inside case back because one owner scratched his name and address in North Bay, Ontario at some point, and "Return if Found"

8-10 service marks but doesn't appear done by the same WM

gf Fortune A.W.C. Company case

Canuck · May 28, 2021

Canuck
I’m not at home right now. I’ll check Warren Neibling’s book on American watch case makers, and get back to you.

@ScDevon ,

As promised, I checked Warren Neibling’s book for Hamann & Koch, case makers. No joy it could be that the case was made by a recognized case maker, but trademarked for the retailer. An impressive case in any event.

ScDevon · May 29, 2021

Canuck
@ScDevon ,

As promised, I checked Warren Neibling’s book for Hamann & Koch, case makers. No joy it could be that the case was made by a recognized case maker.

.

Thank you for your efforts. If the movement is out of the case for any reason, I’ll look for additional marks. I think you’re exactly right about it being sort of a private label for a local New York jeweler. Again, thanks!

TexOmega · May 29, 2021

Elgin
12s 17j model 3 grade 384
Circa 1922
Love the hands and whimsical numerals
Base metal case