Calling all Pocket Watch Buffs

Waltesefalcon · Mon. 1:02pm

One brand you can always trust me to rep is Hamilton.

TexOmega · Mon. 1:26pm

Waltesefalcon
Even with the damage that is one beautiful dial.

Well, gained respect from the guy with the knot on his head.

Waltesefalcon · Mon. 2:27pm

TexOmega
Well, gained respect from the guy with the knot on his head.

Bet he paid up after that, too.

BAJJ · Mon. 2:36pm

So, popped over to the in-laws this evening, they are off to their holiday place in Canada tomorrow, she’s Canadian, he Irish. They know I like watches, so out pops this beauty which belonged to her uncle in Canada and has been in the back of a drawer for years, she vaguely recalls that he may have had a railroad job early on in his life.
The outer case is worn soft with use, clearly a watch that was in daily use for years. The plexi is discoloured and the dial is fairly dirty, but the blued hands are exquisite. The movement is in glorious condition, a thing of beauty.
There are several service marks visible so it was well looked after. It’s running very well, amplitude of 280 and gains a couple of seconds a day.
I’ve never heard of Studebaker / South Bend watch company before but a quick look at the pocket watch data base gave me some history and indicates a manufacture date of 1926. It looks to me to be a quality watch.
The inside of the case suggests that it’s railroad grade but this I believe is not the case as it’s not lever set.
I’d appreciate any other information on these if anyone can share.
I think it’s a lovely piece that fits so well in the hand.
She wanted someone who appreciates these things to have it. This is such a great hobby that delivers joy when least expected. I’m very happy to look after it for another few years and use it occasionally.

Canuck · Mon. 2:48pm

On the subject of fancy dials.

When we do a watch exhibit, this one is the one the ladies go gaga over. It was purchased new circa 1902 by Mrs C’s great grandfather. He was a sergeant in the Union Army during the Civil War. At the end of his hitch, he became sheriff in Paducah County, Kentucky. He married, and he and his wife moved to a homestead in Kansas. Came the children. The wife was always afraid of tornados, so they left Kansas and moved to Washington, to a farm near Spangle, south of Spokane. He opened a hardware store in Spangle at which time he bought this Elgin B W Raymond 18-size watch. The B W Raymond grade was railroad approved, but this watch was not railroad approved because of the dial and hands. Why he chose this style of dial and hands, we’ll never know.

Canuck · Mon. 3:01pm

I very much doubt the Studebaker would have been railroaded approved. By the time it was made (circa 1926, not 1826), the auto maker Studebaker (South Bend, Indiana) owned the South Bend Watch Co. Time standards on railroads required the actual name of the company that made the watch be shown on the dial. The movement appears to possess nearly all the features that railroad standard watches had to have. A good thorough service and clean up would certainly improve the appearance.

From the pocketwatchdatabase site:

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/search/result/southbend/1138923

bobertdob · Mon. 3:04pm

BAJJ
So, popped over to the in-laws this evening, they are off to their holiday place in Canada tomorrow, she’s Canadian, he Irish. They know I like watches, so out pops this beauty which belonged to her uncle in Canada and has been in the back of a drawer for years, she vaguely recalls that he may have had a railroad job early on in his life.
The outer case is worn soft with use, clearly a watch that was in daily use for years. The plexi is discoloured and the dial is fairly dirty, but the blued hands are exquisite. The movement is in glorious condition, a thing of beauty.
There are several service marks visible so it was well looked after. It’s running very well, amplitude of 280 and gains a couple of seconds a day.
I’ve never heard of Studebaker / South Bend watch company before but a quick look at the pocket watch data base gave me some history and indicates a manufacture date of 1926. It looks to me to be a quality watch.
The inside of the case suggests that it’s railroad grade but this I believe is not the case as it’s not lever set.
I’d appreciate any other information on these if anyone can share.
I think it’s a lovely piece that fits so well in the hand.
She wanted someone who appreciates these things to have it. This is such a great hobby that delivers joy when least expected. I’m very happy to look after it for another few years and use it occasionally.

This is a beautiful pocket watch and at least in the Canadian context Railroad grade acceptable. I have numerous Railroad pocket watches from Canada where I live that are not lever set including a nice Waltham Canadian Railway Timing Service, several Waltham Crescent Streets in Stem Set and even a Burlington 21J Railroad used up here and not lever set in the 1920s. The Southbend Watch Company succeeded the Columbus Watch Company in 1903 and I have been an avid collector of the early Columbus Brands but Columbus ran into trouble in about 1893 or 1894 became a reorganized effort only lasting to about 1902....the Studebaker family bought the Columbus operation and relocated it. Your Studebaker might be top of the line for that timeframe. If it is in running condition that is great if you needed a donor watch ie. two watches to make one there is an almost identical Studebaker coming up for auction in Ontario out of Smith Falls on August 27th in about the same cosmetic condition but a slightly better dial....enjoy your watch I think its all original....

Canuck · Mon. 3:31pm

bobertdob
This is a beautiful pocket watch and at least in the Canadian context Railroad grade acceptable. I have numerous Railroad pocket watches from Canada where I live that are not lever set including a nice Waltham Canadian Railway Timing Service, several Waltham Crescent Streets in Stem Set and even a Burlington 21J Railroad used up here and not lever set in the 1920s. The Southbend Watch Company succeeded the Columbus Watch Company in 1903 and I have been an avid collector of the early Columbus Brands but Columbus ran into trouble in about 1893 or 1894 became a reorganized effort only lasting to about 1902....the Studebaker family bought the Columbus operation and relocated it. Your Studebaker might be top of the line for that timeframe. If it is in running condition that is great if you needed a donor watch ie. two watches to make one there is an almost identical Studebaker coming up for auction in Ontario out of Smith Falls on August 27th in about the same cosmetic condition but a slightly better dial....enjoy your watch I think its all original....

Time service rules varied with each railroad, based on the preferences of that particular railroad’s general time inspector. Under the standards issued by the Ball Watch Co., the Studebaker watch would not have been railroad approved. The Canadian Pacific Railway, well into the 20th century, continued to accept 3 Adjustment, stem set, single roller, 1883 model Waltham watches. I have several Waltham stem set 1883 models marked CRTS that CPR approved. I also have one CPR 1883 model as described with the CPR logo embossed on the movement, the CPR approved. And a Waltham 1892 CPR model that many railroads would have rejected. While standards for railroad watches laid down by Ball were all encompassing, and mandatory, railroads who didn’t subscribe to the Ball standards could pick and choose what was important to their general time inspector.

I have shown one watch from my collection which is a curiosity. It has a private label dial (for G W Beall, Lindsay, Ontario). That fact alone should mean the watch would not have been railroad approved. But around the seconds bit, you’ll notice the Waltham name. The watch is an 1883 model Waltham, stem set, single roller, 3 adjustments, with the movement marked Canadian Railway Time Service. How would a railroad general time inspector get his head around trying to decide whether it would be railroad approved or not?

Waltesefalcon · Mon. 4:31pm

I've always thought it a bit peculiar how Ball refused to allow PLs to be considered for railway standard use, while running a huge PL targeting railway standard customers... I don't recall ever seeing the manufacturer named on either the dial or mov't of a Ball...

Canuck · Mon. 4:36pm

Waltesefalcon
I've always thought it a bit peculiar how Ball refused to allow PLs to be considered for railway standard use, while running a huge PL targeting railway standard customers... I don't recall ever seeing the manufacturer named on either the dial or mov't of a Ball...

I think that’s because Webb Ball considered his operation to be an actual manufacturer. Besides, he set the standards in such a manner as to permit this bias.

noelekal · Mon. 4:37pm

"Rules for thee. Not for me."

TexOmega · Mon. 4:48pm

BAJJ
So, popped over to the in-laws this evening, they are off to their holiday place in Canada tomorrow, she’s Canadian, he Irish. They know I like watches, so out pops this beauty which belonged to her uncle in Canada and has been in the back of a drawer for years, she vaguely recalls that he may have had a railroad job early on in his life.
The outer case is worn soft with use, clearly a watch that was in daily use for years. The plexi is discoloured and the dial is fairly dirty, but the blued hands are exquisite. The movement is in glorious condition, a thing of beauty.
There are several service marks visible so it was well looked after. It’s running very well, amplitude of 280 and gains a couple of seconds a day.
I’ve never heard of Studebaker / South Bend watch company before but a quick look at the pocket watch data base gave me some history and indicates a manufacture date of 1926. It looks to me to be a quality watch.
The inside of the case suggests that it’s railroad grade but this I believe is not the case as it’s not lever set.
I’d appreciate any other information on these if anyone can share.
I think it’s a lovely piece that fits so well in the hand.
She wanted someone who appreciates these things to have it. This is such a great hobby that delivers joy when least expected. I’m very happy to look after it for another few years and use it occasionally.

Nice gift, enjoy the heck out of it, and you may now start to bump into more of these!!

These were kinda a Mail Order type pw by the 20's. When South Bend went bankrupt, that Studebaker name was valuable to another company.

This grade 229 "The Studebaker "was made as a RR grade watch when South Bend was a going concern and established Studebaker as a known name.

Waltesefalcon · Mon. 4:48pm

Canuck
I think that’s because Webb Ball considered his operation to be an actual manufacturer. Besides, he set the standards in such a manner as to permit this bias.

noelekal
"Rules for thee. Not for me."

Exactly right, gentlemen. He made the rules, and under those rules he considered himself a manufacturer. It's a level of self promotion that P.T. Barnum would have been proud of.

bobertdob · Mon. 5:15pm

Canuck
Time service rules varied with each railroad, based on the preferences of that particular railroad’s general time inspector. Under the standards issued by the Ball Watch Co., the Studebaker watch would not have been railroad approved. The Canadian Pacific Railway, well into the 20th century, continued to accept 3 Adjustment, stem set, single roller, 1883 model Waltham watches. I have several Waltham stem set 1883 models marked CRTS that CPR approved. I also have one CPR 1883 model as described with the CPR logo embossed on the movement, the CPR approved. And a Waltham 1892 CPR model that many railroads would have rejected. While standards for railroad watches laid down by Ball were all encompassing, and mandatory, railroads who didn’t subscribe to the Ball standards could pick and choose what was important to their general time inspector.

I have shown one watch from my collection which is a curiosity. It has a private label dial (for G W Beall, Lindsay, Ontario). That fact alone should mean the watch would not have been railroad approved. But around the seconds bit, you’ll notice the Waltham name. The watch is an 1883 model Waltham, stem set, single roller, 3 adjustments, with the movement marked Canadian Railway Time Service. How would a railroad general time inspector get his head around trying to decide whether it would be railroad approved or not?

Private Labels must have been somewhat acceptable across Canada especially in very non urban settings. The 52 page discussion in the Internet Horology Club 185 provides a lot of detail on Canadian Private Labels. I have used it extensively when evaluating some of my purchases including a WH Mallett PL Hamilton 923 17J LS Canadian Imperial railroad watch. I am also pursuing the largely unknown Regina 21 Jewel railroad watch and have only sourced one to date a Chinnick from Napanee associated with the Grand Trunk Line of the day....but there are others I have seen one other being an Omega 21J variation of the Regina (virtually identical but the Omega had a better micrometer regulator) but they are uncommon. I envy your GW Beall from Lindsay I live just a few minutes from there and was once attempting to buy one but it was just too expensive for me at the time and have seen no others so far. But the topic of a railroad watch having to be lever set sometimes frustrates me as most that I have seen like my Waltham 1883 CPR and CRTS are pendant set my two recent Vanguard acquisitions lever set..I defer to your knowledge and experience on the subject of lever set requirements and to some extent the acceptance of Private labels but there are a lot of private label railroad grade private labels out there especially in the West where you likely reside....If you havan't seen it checkout the IHC 185 discussion on the subject its worth an evening or several with great pics....I don't know if its acceptable to post their link but if you want it ping me separately.....

Canuck · Mon. 6:57pm

I don’t know at what point the ruling re: private label watches were no longer acceptable, was introduced. On the topic of Omega railroad standard pocket watches, I have a Brandt (Omega) grade CCR which is a private label watch for A Logan of Greenwood, B C. The Brandt CCR was railroad approved for Canada. This watch is from circa 1905, and I have a strong suspicion it had been used by a railroader. I also have a P/L Hamilton 944 for D R Dingwall of Winnipeg, Manitoba, and a Hamilton 940 P/L for G M Rioch of Kenora, Ontario. Both these watches were made in the 20th century, and were likely used by railroaders. So, yes, P/L railroad standard watches appear to have been used in Canada. But then, I’m certain that was also the same South of the 49th.

A former fount of knowledge on NAWCC chapter 185 message board, Larry Buchan (Buchaneer), passed away about 5 years ago. He was a personal friend of mine. I am certain that a lot of the content on the 185 messages board was from Larry.

Canuck · Mon. 7:57pm

@bobertdob ,

I called internet horology 185 as NAWCC chapter 185. That was once a chapter of NAWCC. Past tense. I was an NAWCC member when, owing to controversy, their charter was dropped by NAWCC.

bobertdob · Mon. 9:15pm

Canuck
I don’t know at what point the ruling re: private label watches were no longer acceptable, was introduced. On the topic of Omega railroad standard pocket watches, I have a Brandt (Omega) grade CCR which is a private label watch for A Logan of Greenwood, B C. The Brandt CCR was railroad approved for Canada. This watch is from circa 1905, and I have a strong suspicion it had been used by a railroader. I also have a P/L Hamilton 944 for D R Dingwall of Winnipeg, Manitoba, and a Hamilton 940 P/L for G M Rioch of Kenora, Ontario. Both these watches were made in the 20th century, and were likely used by railroaders. So, yes, P/L railroad standard watches appear to have been used in Canada. But then, I’m certain that was also the same South of the 49th.

A former fount of knowledge on NAWCC chapter 185 message board, Larry Buchan (Buchaneer), passed away about 5 years ago. He was a personal friend of mine. I am certain that a lot of the content on the 185 messages board was from Larry.

Yes I recognize the name and he was one of their foremost posters. This Canadian PL forum goes back a very long way starting in Dec of 2004 and continued for 52 pages ie. countless posts. Larrys last post in that forum dates to May 17 2019 and its only had a few posts since. Sorry to hear he has passed away! Your collection of PLs sounds awesome. I might only have something in the neighborhood of three dozen and thats likely a tiny collection as compared to yours. The Regina PLs which are commonplace got me started many years ago then I digressed to the T Eaton Gallets and the Charles Stark Illinois and Auroras picking up a few uniques like a Pequegnat which I think is an unlabeled longines apart from the named Longines PLs including a Quebec Longines Express Leader RR.. I got the WH Mallet Brandon Manitoba Hamilton PL about a year ago just a beautiful 924 17J in a sterling silver case and uniquely Canadian. Im in Chapter 33 in Toronto and there are usually interesting offerings at their meetings.

BAJJ · Tues. 4:27am

Very informative discussion, thank you all for your input, it’s great to learn about the history of these watches.
Watch is running very well, I’ll see if I can clean it up some.