Well, you can try and convince me. I just don’t think you’ll get too far.

 

I won't bother. It's strange to bump into someone who can't seem to differentiate the two notions of price and value on a forum like this one.

 

It may have something to do with the $125 services that fix all day long... I agree that value is there to be had. You can certainly pay too much for things. $25,000 to service a vintage Daytona at Rolex is ‘too much’ in my opinion. Should a base service on a vintage Omega cost $1000 plus parts? No, I don’t think it should. But you cannot perform all the steps necessary and up keep a shop to any standard charging those prices.

I have a watchmaker friend who changes all his oils before the expire (as all should), and other ‘watchmakers’ were lining up to take them of his hands. Free oil, the thought. Great! I ask you - who do you want to use to service your treasured possessions?

 

So you are assuming that all good watchmakers have a shop, which is another mistake. You are also assuming that all good watchmakers are good businessmen or accountants, which is not the case. The only one absolutely useless variable in assessing the quality of service delivered by a watchmaker is the price charged for the service.

 

Yes, all watchmakers have a shop. It might be in their basement or from their house. But they all have a shop. Mines in my house. The location of a workshop will change the rent paid but not the running costs. I’m not assuming they are good businessmen. Most watchmakers aren’t in my experience.

My original statement still stands.

 

I wouldn't consider changing those hands. As member padders mentioned, that is an unusual Japanese market model variation and I would suggest keeping it original. Perhaps add another Omega to your collection that sports hands you prefer? Everyone needs more than one Omega anyways

 

I would be a little careful with statements like this. I agree that a professional repair shop will not be able to charge this much for a good service and stay in business, and that is obviously your perspective. However, different people approach the hobby from different places and I'm not going to judge them for it. We don't really know what this member was "after" and we don't know whether the watchmaker is a professional or a hobbyist. So I will reserve judgement.

Personally, if I am going to have a watch serviced, I want the job done right, and I will pay for it. Someone else, if their budget is limited, and they don't plan to wear the watch very often (e.g. a few times a year), may be satisfied just to get the watch running reasonably well. Similarly, there are retired watchmakers or hobbyists who will service watches at a low price for a small circle of friends and acquaintances. I know a lot of people like this frankly. I'm not under the illusion that the hobbyists have the full set of skills that a fully trained watchmaker has, but some of them have serviced 100s of watches over decades, and have become pretty proficient at doing a basic COA service.

 

A COA isn’t something that exists on a vintage watch. To do a job properly, certain criteria need to be met. There is a right way to do things and wrong way to do things. Plain and simple. Leaving worn and damaged components in a watch is not the right way to do things. I’m sure the Swiss watch industry would back me up on that one. Punching the side of a worn barrel bushing is a very common practice. It doesn’t make it right. It’s wrong.

Vintage watches always need extra work. Bushings, escapement adjustments, parts changed, etc. And for that money those things can’t be happening.

People obviously have the right to use whoever they want to service their vintage watches but don’t think that the service your getting is necessarily the one you are expecting. That’s all I’m trying to say.

 

Who told you that parts needed to be changed?

Do you always have to assume things that you don't know?

 

Just read my post.

 

I did, twice. You told that parts need to be changed and that if someone paid $125 for a service, that watchmaker is probably lazy.

But how do you know that parts needed to be changed for that particular watch?

 

No, you didn’t read my post.

 

I just did for the third time and it's getting more and more absurd the more I read it.

 

OK, I get that you don't like the fact that people disagree with you, since you are an expert on watch repair, but you can't browbeat collectors into your point of view. You've made your pitch and you are just repeating yourself. Instead of telling us that we are wrong, maybe you should look at membership in the forum as a way to understand the mindset of collectors. You don't know what people are "expecting". If you have read other threads in this forum, you already know that there is a big debate amongst collectors about whether it is wise to have a running vintage watch serviced at all (I don't agree with this BTW), partly because of distrust about what a watchmaker will do to their watch. It does not surprise me that some people would want the minimum done to get a watch running, both because of expense and also because of the trust issue.

Keep in mind that some people are trying to preserve collections of hundreds of vintage watches, some of which may have little monetary value. You seem to have a fairly narrow and precious idea about the "right way" to do things, perhaps based on the way you were trained. This is admirable in a way, but it is not the way that everyone thinks. Give it another 20 years, and I think you may develop a more tolerant perspective of the quirks of various collectors.

 

I have no problem with people disagreeing with me. I’m all for differing opinions and welcome them. I have views on polishing and am more than happy for people to disagree with me on them. I have views on dial restorations, etc. Again, more than happy to have people disagree and I respect all those opinions.

Im not trying to browbeat anyone into my way of thinking. I’ve dealt with hundreds of collectors during my career and understand the collector mindset more than you will know.

You mentioned that collectors have mistrust of watchmakers - do you think maybe that’s why I’m so passionate about the subject? Do you think that may be the reason I put forth my argument? I am trained in an industry overrun with cowboys and hacks that ruin it for everyone.

Yes, I do have a narrow idea of the right way to do things - because when it comes to vintage watches that people love and cherish, why would anyone chose the wrong way to do it? That just seems absurd...

 

I think the answer to that is here...not all watches are loved and cherished.

Some are just fun buys that someone doesn't care too much about, so they don't want to spend the money to do what you and I consider a proper service. Personally, I'm fine with that, and they are not going to be my customers anyway.

I think the biggest issue I have with what's been stated in this thread is this - the underlining in mine:

I cringed when I read that. The idea that someone was able to get "the very same work" for 4X less, well that's a dubious conclusion in my view. Of course no full scope was given for either watchmaker, so we really have no idea if these are apples to apples, or apples to watermelons comparisons. I've stressed numerous times here, that unless you know the full scope of work that is being proposed, judging the price as being "fair" or "reasonable" isn't really possible. What are the timing specs that are expected to be achieved? Will the seals be replaced? Will the watch be pressure tested? What sort of warranty is provided? etc.

Having seen the result of a lot of services that have cost in this $125 ballpark, it would be very unusual if that service was done to the standard that I would expect someone charging 4X to do. Is this a rare case that someone has found a unicorn watchmaker who somehow does the impossible for next to nothing? Sure it's possible, but in my view not likely.

Again one of the key issue is that most collectors don't know what a good service really means. They are happy if the watch runs well and doesn't crap out. Given that some collectors may only wear a watch a couple of times a year, if they even bother to get it serviced, I understand why they wouldn't want to spend much on that service, and if it gains or loses a minute in the day they wear it, big deal. If you don't expect much from a service, you won't be disappointed.

Cheers, Al

 

I'm just curious: what kind of accuracy do you expect for a non-chronometer watch after a service?

 

I’ll try and illustrate my point a little better so that my position can be understood.

Here we have a Chronostop driver that I am currently servicing. You can see it’s in bad shape.



Here are all the parts that I replaced.



A new mainspring was installed, crystal, crown, stem, case tube, complete pusher assembly, springbars, and back gasket. I also changed the pallet fork and third wheel.

Now, could I have reused this winding stem and received the same timing results?



The answer is yes. Would anyone in this forum think it’s right to reuse this winding stem as is? I highly doubt it.

Let’s take the crystal, crown and pusher out of it. They could have been reused and the customer would have saved some money there. What about the mainspring, third wheel and pallet fork? They needed replacing and that wasn’t an option.

Why not? The watch would have run at a sub par performance level - one that I, and (insert generic brand here) would not have deemed appropriate.

The watch would have run and in fact it would have kept time fine. The customer may have never known and thought I was a fantastic watchmaker if I hadn’t have changed any parts. But what did you pay me for? You paid me to service your watch. I bet you never thought you were paying me to do my job at a 50% level. You thought I would put 100% into my work. And rightly so. That’s what we all expect.

Now from a selfish point of view. What if that watch stopped? Started to perform at a sub optimal level. You bring it back and I say it needs new parts to work properly. You now wonder why this wasn’t done in the first place. I have to charge you for this as it wasn’t part of the original work order. You want it done under warranty. I refuse. Now you tell all your friends what a bad watchmaker I am and I don’t stand behind my work.

So, I’ll state it again. All watches need parts. I can’t remember the last time I serviced a watch that didn’t. And I service a lot of watches.

 

I serviced one of the two that I am presently wearing, about six weeks ago. It is a 50-year old Gruen non-chronometer, manual wind, day-date. I did one small regulation about two weeks after I serviced it, and set it to the second. Since then it hasn’t varied more than two seconds either way, fast or slow! Expect accuracy like this? Well, no. But hope for. And such a pleasure when it happens.

 

Funny as when I was a butcher people always wanted good steak cheap.
I always said “the most tender cheap steak was mince” Guaranteed never to be tough.

A good service is rarely cheap.
A cheap service is rarely good.
Be it watches, cars or boats there is always someone cheap and always someone good.